S03E01 – Mental Health Men And The World – Ray

00:07
Ali
Hey, everybody, welcome back. It’s another episode. This one’s going to be a good one because this one’s been this one’s been itching at me for a while now. And, you know, I’ve had Ray one of our talks with Mental Health. I think you were in discussions with the thief at that time.

00:22
Ray
Yeah.

00:23
Ali
And it’s been, I think, maybe a good two years, but on and off.

00:26
Ray
I think it was during the pandemic.

00:28
Ali
Yeah, I think it was during mid pandemic. And were on Zoom, if I’m not mistaken. So it’s always been great conversation, and we always kind of ping each other randomly at different times for different things. But about two months ago, at the end of the year, something just started bugging me. And this is the checking in on your friends. Let me check in on my friends. Let me see how my friends are doing. And more so with the guys. And we’re going to discuss this about why. We’re going to talk about gentlemen in specific. But more so, I was thinking about I need to check in on the guys. I need to see how they’re doing, and I want to let them know that I’m available to talk to them about whatever is going on in life. They have a person they can speak to.

01:11
Ali
That’s kind of where my thought process started. And then I started thinking. I’m like, but I’ve done this. I’ve reached out to my friends. I’ve sent messages. I’ve dropped a phone call, like, hey, man, how’s it going? Is everything all right? You know, I’m here if you ever want to talk. I have never gotten the answer. Yeah, man, I need to talk, man. I’m feeling troubled or I’m feeling I don’t know what it’s always been. It’s all good, bro. It’s all good. But that’s impossible. Statistics and data tell us that’s impossible. If I talked to 1020 30 friends, no way. I didn’t hit a handful of them that are not in a struggle in the moment that I contacted them. So that really itched at me. And I’ve been thinking about it for a while, and then I thought, let me get Ray to come in and then we have a conversation, because we always come up with very interesting things in our discussion.

01:59
Ray
We do. So thank you for having me, and thank you for thinking of me for this. Appreciate it.

02:04
Ali
Ray, take a couple of minutes and introduce yourself to everybody.

02:08
Ray
So my name is Rahaf. People call me Ray as the Ray of sunshine. I’m the founder of Razor Mental Health, and my mission is to bridge the gap between awareness and action exactly like we know something, what’s next, what to do about it. I focus a lot on men’s mental health, and I raise a lot of awareness. I do campaigns, activations, just to make sure that men do not be men about it. So I do my best to break the stigma around that, having lost my dad to suicide 13 years ago now. So that’s one of the things that I do. I also work with companies on doing corporate programs, on well being and mental health and individuals one to one coaching to helping people be healthier. Healthier. Not better, just healthier.

03:00
Ali
I like what you said there with healthier, a lot of us still operate with a very binary approach to everything in life, either. If you’re happy. If you’re not happy, you’re sad. There’s no in the middle. Everything’s got to be on the high end of the positive. Gives a lot of perspective. First of all, thank you for being here. I appreciate you taking out the time.

03:19
Ray
It’s always a pleasure having a conversation with you, especially when you came to the show. You gave me the shock of my life, and I always brag about your episode to everyone. And by the way, I’m the host of the Don’t Be a man about It show. Ali was one of my guests. You are literally the only guest who came to the show with no baggage, with nothing, and I was like, Hallie, how did your mom do this? So that tells us that with just a bit of intention and effort and extra work, healthy families exist. They exist, and it can be done. You can basically have kids and give them a healthy life, healthy mindsets, healthy behaviors, healthy coping mechanisms. So in my head, and now I use it with my clients. I’m sorry, but if Ali and his family exist, then we can exist as well.

04:18
Ray
So thank you for that. And I’d like to say hi to your mom as well.

04:22
Ali
Yeah, my mom’s rock star, man.

04:25
Ray
She is a rock, man.

04:26
Ali
I love her. And you remember from our discussion on your podcast, I didn’t realize how I was being raised until much later when I looked at everybody else, and I.

04:34
Ray
Was like, wait, just go to a therapist.

04:36
Ali
No, I’m the weird one. I thought I was doing it the right way, but we never had that stigma in the house. That was, I think, in part because were raised outside our home country. I’m third culture. I was brought up in Saudi Arabia, and being able to have that conversation was good. And I remember anytime I would be, like, tired from working or something, my mom would say, you know, I put the effort of raising ten sons into raising you, so you better work ten times as hard. But that was not implied as man up and don’t feel your feelings. That was never connected to that. That was you put the hustle, you work hard, and you get the results that you want. Don’t sit and complain, but if there’s something going on, we talk about it. So that, I think, was a huge privilege for me growing up.

05:28
Ali
Later on in life, high school and college was looking at my friends, and I realized they didn’t have this. And then I realized that they weren’t able to have conversations at the dinner table. They weren’t able to approach their parents about things the way I was able to approach. So that in itself was like a huge eye opener for me. But fast forward two decades. I’ve got friends. I’m 43 now. I’ve got friends who are late thirty s. Forty s. And I’ve got some really young friends who are just out of college because I teach at the university. So I’ve made friends. Over the years, everyone seems to still be struggling, and my brain refuses to comprehend why are they still struggling? With the Internet? I mean, I went to school without Google, right? But with me, too. With the access of information of the entire human civilization in the palm of your hand, how are we struggling?

06:26
Ali
So there’s a lot of things that never like, the dots still don’t connect in my head, and I’ve been working very hard to say, no, these dots aren’t supposed to connect. I need to get this guy to come to my side of the fence. I need to get my friends to come to my side of the fence, where it’s okay for us. Guys. Guys. Bros. Bros. Sit down and talk. Hey, man, what’s going on? And just before we started recording, I told you the little experiment I’ve been doing for about a year now, where I essentially just respond. Anytime somebody asks me, how are you doing? I say, I’m okay. Not with a positive tone or a negative tone. Very neutral. I’m okay. And it throws them, wait, are you okay? Or are you, like, okay?

07:01
Ray
Like, scale one to ten because they.

07:05
Ali
Still feel as a binary model. No. Are you the happy okay, or are you, like, the sad okay? When I realize that it’s not just when somebody says, hey, man, I’m not feeling all right, something’s up with me that throws the person off. Even the okay throws them off. Which, again, like I told you at the end of last year, it really got my little itch in my brain going that, how can I communicate with my people if I am ready to make the active effort to be here? I’m willing to hold space. I’m willing to listen to you. But if every time I ask you, Are you okay? And you’re like, It’s all good, first you’re lying, at least few of you. And then, how do I get you to tell me the truth that you’re not? And then when you tell me that you’re not okay, what am I supposed to do with that?

07:51
Ali
So there’s a lot of layers to.

07:54
Ray
The thing I want it to be.

07:57
Ali
It’s not. But before we kind of drill into that, the one one conversation, share with me a little bit more about where we are as a society post. COVID I would have thought we learned our lesson or got our s*** together.

08:12
Ray
Same. It doesn’t feel like it. The pandemic felt like you went to a Tony Robbins event. You’re all hyped up. I’m going to change tomorrow morning. This is the new me. And then gradually, everything goes back to how they were. I was like, People, what happened? Exactly what happened? So I think it’s just a matter of, I don’t want to say lack of education or lack of knowledge, because that wouldn’t be right. Because now with the lots of content available, I don’t think this is a good excuse, which is lack of knowledge. It’s just a lack of doing things differently. The intention or the come on, it’s too much effort. Maybe tomorrow, if it’s not me, maybe someone else is doing it. We have been doing this for 2030 years. Why me? So these kind of mindsets, nothing’s going to change. If no one’s going to do something about it, or if you’re just going to watch few people doing it, then these people are going to feel like, who am I doing this for?

09:18
Ray
Again, it’s not as simple as we want it to be, but as a society, we just need to collectively decide that, you know what? This ends here. Do not wait till a family member dies out of suicide or depression or something happens, terrible happened, and then say, oh, s***. Do not wait until that person is a member of yours. And I see it happening. Doesn’t have to be a relative. So you feel compassionate or empathetic and then say, oh, mental health is real. I don’t know where the starting point would be, but I know for a fact that it has to be collective. When something bad happens in Beirut, for example, everyone goes down to protest. Yeah, great. Where is your strategy?

10:08
Ali
This is what I ask. Then what?

10:10
Ray
Then what?

10:10
Ali
Oh, thank you.

10:11
Ray
You’ve speaking up great. You’ve raised your voice amazing. You’ve done, collectively, a lot of effort to go from your houses to the streets. Awesome. And then and then what? So this then is missing.

10:27
Ali
Yes, I agree. And I think you’re right. We had that little Tony Robinson style boost of, like, hey, man, we’re going to fix mental health, because COVID showed us that we need to fix it.

10:39
Ray
It is the pandemic.

10:40
Ali
And then all of a sudden, conversations are gone. Dialogue is gone. Companies aren’t really looking for mental health solution for employees anymore. There’s been barely any change to the insurance infrastructure in the country to support it. I know of a handful of companies that have asked the insurance companies to put it in, but that’s it. And the conversation just kind of it’s.

11:01
Ray
Official, but it’s not just background.

11:04
Ali
It’s gone.

11:05
Ray
Implemented.

11:06
Ali
It’s gone. And I remember similar conversations being had at the school level, at the university level, that we want to work more on awareness. We understand the importance of mental health for students and all of this, but even that conversation seems to have fizzled away without aside from maybe a handful of universities and schools, it’s back to before. Nothing’s really happening. And we’ve had this discussion in different ways many times about how it needs to be a 360 approach from all angles. We need to have the families talking. We need to have the education in the school teamwork.

11:40
Ray
If a student or your kid went to the school, they gave them something about mental health, how to deal with anxiety, and then they go back, oh, mom, here’s what I learned about anxiety. Go do your homework. Go clean your room. Go do this. Take care of your sister or brother or whatever. So the kid would be okay?

11:56
Ali
Yeah.

11:57
Ray
Then I’m not going to talk about this with my parents anymore.

12:01
Ali
And the people I’ve met over the last three and a half years of having mental health ae as a platform, it’s the same story. There’s no way I can talk to my parents. I’m like, okay, try. At least try. And then, yeah, I tried. I was told basically to man up and to get lost. This is not a thing.

12:23
Ray
Grades are more important. God forbid they get a bad grade.

12:27
Ali
I’m someone who’s been teaching at the university for more than 20 years. I will tell you grades are not as important as everyone tells you, especially what parents tell you. Ask the guy who’s dedicated his life to education, but a lot definitely needs to be done at the school level, house, university, employment, all of that. I kind of want to figure out what do I do when I’m talking to my friends? We know the data surrounding we know the data surrounding mental health. And if we compare, for example, even suicide rates, men versus women, it’s three times more. It’s three times. And when the first time I read it, I was like, data is wrong.

13:08
Ray
Three times.

13:09
Ali
And then I checked other and men.

13:11
Ray
And others succeed from the first attempt. Yes, woman takes more like three times.

13:19
Ali
But that in itself is scary. That in itself is scary. And you just to think about what’s happening around the world and just because we don’t see it in front of us every single day and the news does not cover all of these things.

13:33
Ray
It doesn’t mean it’s and will not.

13:35
Ali
And they won’t. It’s not newsworthy. It’s whatever.

13:38
Ray
Because a lot of businesses would not be winning at the end of the day if our mental health were good.

13:45
Ali
Yes.

13:46
Ray
So let’s have a role play.

13:47
Ali
Sure.

13:48
Ray
All right. I’m your friend. Check on me.

13:52
Ali
How are you doing?

13:53
Ray
Doing great, baby.

13:54
Ali
Thank you very much. Roleplay over, guys. Everybody go home. Podcast.

13:57
Ray
So I would say let’s go with your answer. Yeah, I’m okay.

14:02
Ali
Tell me more.

14:03
Ray
That’s a good one. Well, work is good. I’m fine.

14:10
Ali
What do you mean when you say fine?

14:12
Ray
I don’t know. No one asked me that before.

14:16
Ali
So.

14:16
Ray
I could say something. I’m fine means I get up in the morning, I go to work, I do what I have to do, but there’s something just not feeling right. I think so, yeah.

14:29
Ali
How long have you been feeling this way?

14:32
Ray
I haven’t been counting, but I think if I wanted to assume maybe two weeks. Three weeks?

14:39
Ali
Did something in particular happen two or three weeks ago?

14:43
Ray
Wow, man, you’re making me think. I think it started with Christmas. Yeah. Holidays make me feel lonely.

14:53
Ali
It’s interesting you say that. Generally, holidays are a time to be joyous and to celebrate. Why were you feeling lonely?

15:00
Ray
I don’t have someone to celebrate with. It’s just that me. That’s it.

15:07
Ali
You’re right. It can get very difficult if you don’t have somebody to celebrate with. And I remember during COVID that was the first time in my life I wasn’t able to have a star every day with my mom and dad, and I was beside myself, upset. But talk to me about your friends.

15:26
Ray
So I have good friends I go out with friends I hang out with. But it doesn’t seem that we speak the same language or I don’t think they would understand, so I just decide not to say anything.

15:42
Ali
Have you considered talking to them about these things? I mean, they are your friends. Do you feel that they won’t be able to listen to you?

15:48
Ray
I think so, yeah.

15:50
Ali
Would it hurt to try?

15:53
Ray
Did it once, and I felt there was a bit of sarcasm. They take everything lightly, and that’s not what I want when I’m in that mood. So I just decided not to talk about it. I do journal.

16:08
Ali
I understand. And it’s important to understand that not everybody is going to be able to hold space for you and to be able to listen to you.

16:15
Ray
It’s tiring.

16:16
Ali
It is tiring. You’re right. But journaling is a fantastic way to kind of illustrate and offload a lot of your feelings at the same time. Have you considered seeing a counselor or a therapist?

16:28
Ray
No, not really.

16:31
Ali
Would you be open to try?

16:32
Ray
Do you think it’s going to work?

16:34
Ali
There’s no harm in trying.

16:37
Ray
Do you know someone? Because I don’t know any.

16:39
Ali
I will be very happy to make recommendations, and I’ll be happy to take you with me to them, and I’ll sit outside and wait for you.

16:48
Ray
I would really appreciate that. Thank you.

16:50
Ali
Thank you very much. Wow.

16:55
Ray
That was really good in a way where you made it sound like we’re just having conversation. Nothing heavy, nothing to be ashamed of, which is really good. So if people learn that skill, especially with kids and teenagers oh, yes. Oh, my goodness.

17:16
Ali
Well, just so the audience knows, I’m not feeling girl. I got you. But Rahaf is a practicing coach, and so am I. So I’ve got a thousand plus hours of coaching. So I have actually been trained to listen as part of my coaching education and process. But one of the things I mentioned in the middle and what you had talked about when I said, have you tried talking to your friends? And you are right, more often than not, you will not be met by someone who is willing to listen because they were never taught how, and they’re.

17:51
Ray
Rushing to fix things.

17:53
Ali
And yes, I was just going to say that the fix it mentality, please stop that. You can’t first accept the reality that if it was something that you think you could have fixed in a minute, bro, I would have fixed it myself. I’ve been living with this. You think I don’t want to fix this? This is one of those, oh, you’re sad. Don’t be sad. But I think on both sides of this conversation, because each of us can be on either side of this conversation. I think what’s important to understand is, first try to reach out. And if you’re finding resistance or you’re not finding someone, being able to hold space for you, or they don’t just know even how to hear you out, that’s okay. That doesn’t mean they’re bad. That just means they don’t know.

18:41
Ray
Absolutely.

18:42
Ali
So you have two options, but you don’t stop there.

18:44
Ray
You either teach them yes. A friend of mine, she hates it when I say it. I was like, you teach people how to behave with you, how to treat you, how to hold space for you. You teach them because they don’t know. We don’t come with a manual, so you teach them. So for people who have they’re in a bad place, they might not have the patience for this, but it’s really worth it at some point, maybe at a later stage. That’s the first option. Second option is really go see an expert, be it a therapist or a psychologist or a coach or whatever person you feel safe with, and you feel like, you know what? I could talk to that person freely.

19:25
Ali
And you don’t finish till you start. And you need to start. You can’t just say, oh, I tried talking to my friend. My friend wasn’t listening. Game over. No, your friend is one option. Many options.

19:37
Ray
Yeah. And I really just underlining the word therapy, is that therapy should stop being a place we go to when things get worse. Go there before anything happens. So you learn about yourself, so you have more awareness, so you learn how to be there for other people. I still go to therapy because I’m curious, how can I be healthier? Yes, I’m saying and a lot of things have to change, but at least let’s help people at least have a starting point.

20:04
Ali
I agree, and you’re right. We need to have a starting point. And I think that starting point is being able to first reach out to friends and letting them know that you’re there to listen to them. You’re willing to hold a little bit of space for them, and it’s not your job to fix it. It’s your job to just to hear them out.

20:21
Ray
But I would like to also highlight something, which I have been noticing lately, is that people who reach out, they rarely get people to reach to them in a way where you check on people, but no one checks on you because he’s good, he’s okay, he’s fine. He could handle himself, and that narrative has to change.

20:40
Ali
You’re right. That’s the other side.

20:42
Ray
I like that smile.

20:43
Ali
You know me too well. That’s the other side of the fence. And I’ve had some very close friends complain to me. They’re like, Ali, you hold so much for so many people, and you’re ali for so many. Who’s your ali? I’m like, nobody. Nobody?

20:57
Ray
No.

20:58
Ali
It’s hard. And I’m guilty. I’ll be the first to admit I’m guilty. And it’s always been very difficult for me to kind of even ask. Yeah, it’s been difficult for me to even my entire life, I’ve never asked, and not because of the toxic masculinity part. It’s just I think over the years, I’ve built up my capacity not to even mama, I don’t have anything to talk to her about. She calls. She goes, look at me. Do I look skinny to you? From any angle. The one person on the planet that I always look skinny to is my mom. So she just wants to know, did you eat? Yes, Mama, I ate. You need anything good? I’m coming over. I’m bringing more food. Mama, I just said I ate. No, I’m good with mom, and we talk, but at the same time, I can’t talk to her about everything.

21:47
Ali
Some things are just heavy, and I know that she’s going to worry. And also, my mom is in her 60s, so I have had to, over the years, kind of take a step back, because I’ve noticed that now she gets more worried than she perhaps should. So I’ve got a great friend and my mom, but at the same time, I love her to death, and I don’t like to see her worried at all. So if I got to put up a little bit more on my side and kind of manage, I’m doing that, which is, again, not a healthy thing, and it’s the wrong thing to do. And I really should be asking some of my friends. And perhaps I also do need to see a professional and talk things out, because sometimes it can be a lot. It can be. But the thing that you mentioned, we kind of tangented into the listener, but a lot of times you ask somebody, hey, man, how’s it going?

22:39
Ali
Oh, it’s going okay. No, really, how’s it going? Oh, it’s going okay. It’s very hard to break that barrier for them to stop lying because that lie is so powerful, because they believe it.

22:52
Ray
I like that you call it a lie. Straight on it’s a lie.

22:57
Ali
Why are you lying to me, man? And I have friends that I am very close to. And over the years of knowing you.

23:03
Ray
Can feel a narrative. There’s a narrative. No one can help me. Nothing can help me. I’ve been in this s*** for so long. Nothing’s going to change. What’s the point of talking about it if there’s no solution? I mean, time will heal everything.

23:19
Ali
And I would be, no, that’s not how it works. That’s another lie you’ve been told.

23:24
Ray
Let’s change that. What would they think about me? I mean, I’ve been doing well for so long and now I’m not. Oh, my God. So there’s also the ego. There’s also, again, the society’s role in this, because we do not make things easier for people.

23:41
Ali
Oh, no, we don’t.

23:42
Ray
We don’t. I don’t care how many times you post on your social media mental health matters. I’m here to listen. But you’re not doing your job properly.

23:50
Ali
Difference between saying and doing.

23:52
Ray
Bridging the gap. Exactly. We’re not making things easier. So I do understand people when they just say, you know what, just easier like that. I’ve been carrying this burden for so long, I’m okay for a few more years. I’m done. Hello. Let’s go out and have fun.

24:09
Ali
It is what it is.

24:10
Ray
It is what it is.

24:11
Ali
I’m like, no, it ain’t.

24:13
Ray
So. It’s just that treat mental health awareness the way you would treat a movie or a song, you would repeatedly listen to that song so you know the lyrics by heart. Do the same thing with reading symptoms and knowing how to respond to I’m okay. What does okay mean? What do you mean? Because when I say I’m okay, I’m really not, or I’m tired from saying I’m not okay and you not knowing what to do with it. So I’m going to say I’m okay.

24:42
Ali
Yeah.

24:43
Ray
So learn these things the way you learn lyrics.

24:47
Ali
Yes. And you know what’s interesting is, especially in our part of the world, in our cultures, I find it so ironic how anywhere else in the world, you’d be like, you see somebody hey, hello. And they were like, hey, hello. But no, our part of the world, especially if you’re even if I’m from Pakistan, then if you’re from the other part of the world, hey, good morning. Or good morning to you. Good breakfast to you, and good breakfast to you, too. And how are your socks? Oh, my socks are great. And how is your grandma? My grandma’s great. Did you have a good lunch last yesterday? Yes, I did. I mean, the hello quality of questions as well, the depth and the hellos. At some point, I lose track of what the conversation is, and we’re still at hello. What that tells me is that, yes, we are a society that cares.

25:31
Ali
But then when it comes to this, how are you doing, brother?

25:33
Ray
Is it caring?

25:34
Ali
No.

25:34
Ray
Then it’s like, okay, but is it caring or is it just reprogrammed to ask all of these questions a good question?

25:42
Ali
I used to think that. I’ll give you example of my mom. She’s got all her brothers in the UK, so she’s over at my house. She’ll get on a zoom call or something and be like, hey, how are you doing? I’m doing good. How’s everything going?

25:52
Ray
Good.

25:52
Ali
How are the kids? Good. And then what you cook for lunch? I’m like, Mama, I don’t understand this question. Why are you asking what he cooks for lunch? As if he’s going to fly 8 hours to give you a sample? No, I need to feel how my brother’s feeling. And then she’ll say, oh, I had this for lunch. And this is what we’re preparing for dinner. Because in our cultures, we bond over food.

26:14
Ray
Food is love language.

26:15
Ali
It is a love language, exactly. So if we are that interested in what you had for lunch and what are you cooking for dinner, why am I not asking you? Man, how are you doing today? Are you doing all right? Are you not doing all right?

26:26
Ray
I’m making it now a habit to ask my friends if they’re having me time. Did you rest?

26:31
Ali
Yes.

26:32
Ray
No, I don’t have time to rest. Well, guess what? If you keep living like that, you never have time for anything.

26:38
Ali
No, you have to rest with Insta and all of these channels. You see so many nice little posts and whatnot drowned in a sea of obscurity. But every now and then you run across something nice and like, if somebody really cares for you, they’ll make time for you. How about you start making time for yourself?

26:53
Ray
But also, the first part is really not true because it’s not a matter of priorities, guys. It’s a matter of we have so much on our plates, let’s stop the mentality of if he wanted to, he would. If she wanted to, she would know. That’s not as simple as we want it to be. I don’t want to say brainwashed, but this is exactly how I feel about it, is that people are brainwashed or they won’t take a minute to really analyze or to really think twice about the things they’re reading. Oh, this is how it is. If he wanted to, he would, for example, then that’s it.

27:31
Ali
All right, one shot.

27:33
Ray
Just move on with that statement and spread it here and there without questioning. Question and analyze and think to yourself, wait, how did this land for me? Do I agree with that statement? Okay, wait. If I wanted to, but I do want to and I’m not, what does that tell me about me? I do this. So now, when people for example, let me give you an example. Today, a friend of. Mine posted something on his story. He’s got to know it’s about him. I’m sorry. He said, Eye contact is everything. I sent him a message. That’s a lesson I learned recently that it’s not.

28:11
Ali
It isn’t.

28:12
Ray
There are some people who have anxiety.

28:14
Ali
Yes.

28:15
Ray
It’s a lot of pressure to have eye contact with people. And you have people with ADHD. You have people who are autistic. You have people who really have low self esteem. Eye contact is h*** for them.

28:28
Ali
It’s a struggle.

28:29
Ray
And then he was like, oh, thank you. You’re welcome. So when you see things like this, it’s your responsibility to tell people, thank you for sharing this. But there’s another perspective. There’s another side of what you just shared, because this is also considered as fake news. Yes, it is fake content. There’s only one part of it. What about the rest of it? People don’t do that. You know what? It’s not worth that.

28:59
Ali
The information overload is just so much that you don’t put thought into it. And I regularly tell my friends, I’m like guys, every now and then, more frequently than not, I want you to do a self audit.

29:09
Ray
Yeah, they don’t do that.

29:11
Ali
Think about you.

29:12
Ray
Not everyone does that.

29:13
Ali
Oh, they don’t? They’re like, what do you mean, self audit? I’m like, look at yourself. Are you being the best? You by your own standards. Are you using your own measuring stick or are you using society’s measuring stick?

29:27
Ray
I love this.

29:28
Ali
Who said, by this age, you have to be married with kids and this and job and promotion? Who said, yeah, my mom told me one thing in life. Do whatever you want. Be honest, be happy. She goes, you want to become a fisherman? I’m like, Mom, I get seasick. Okay, something else. Just be honest. Be happy. That’s it. I don’t need you to have a fancy car or big house or nothing. Just be honest. Be happy. You have to live your life for you first. You have to live your life for you first. And only then can something good be shared with somebody else. We talked about holding space for other people, and I think one of the biggest parts about the art of listening is to actually hold empty space and not be in a rush to fill it. So many times I’ll be talking to a friend, and I’m listening, and they’re talking and listening.

30:21
Ali
And then somewhere in the middle, I’ll be like, would you like me to keep listening, or would you like me to respond?

30:29
Ray
Do that.

30:30
Ali
And when I say this to the guys, they’re like, why would I tell you if I didn’t want to hear feedback on this bro? But most of them, but almost all.

30:40
Ray
The women or you could add to it advice or comfort.

30:44
Ali
Yes. And almost all the women will be like, when I’m done, I’ll tell you. I’m like, I’m right here. And I had a friend of mine, after the discussions and some other things, she goes, you remember that one time I was telling you stuff, and you asked me this? Nobody’s ever asked me this. What made you ask? I’m like, as much as I would like to, or you would think I can’t be in your head. So rather than me make assumptions, I will ask. And I have realized, and I have learned over many years and thousands of conversations not to fill the empty space.

31:20
Ray
Yeah, I told you before we started recording is that one time my friend was really having a bad time, and I was like, do you want to talk about it? He’s like, not really. And then I was like, okay, how about coffee and silence? Yeah, he loved the idea. He’s like, oh, my God. Thank you. That’s exactly what I needed. We literally just shared the space, just silently, and I did not make anything to interrupt that silence. Like, Are you ready to talk? No, we are just sipping coffee.

31:54
Ali
I think this fix it savior mentality is ingrained into us from when we’re children. Because as a parent and I have been told off many times by my parenting strategies, when my kids were young, they would be doing something, and then my sister would be there, and she’d move to help, and I’d stop her. I’m like, no, let the kid figure it out. No, but I’m like, but what? The kid will fall, will hurt themselves, cry a little bit, and then they’ll stand back up, and then they’ll learn. You cannot keep doing stuff for your children, especially when they’re at a very small age. They will never learn. And I remember throughout my life, growing up, my friend, I could hear on the phone, they begin yelled at by their parents for not doing something. And then if you listen carefully, it’s the mother saying, you never clean up.

32:44
Ali
I have to clean up after you every day. And I’m like, okay, that’s your answer right there. Why did you clean up after him every day? Because now you created the monster. Let the kid fall, let the kid back up. So similarly, I think because of that, and I always had that in my mind that when I’m raising my kids, I’m going to allow them to make their own mistakes. Within reason. Within reason. So the idea is I’ll set up the boundaries within this. Have fun.

33:13
Ray
Are you still not okay with your daughter traveling?

33:15
Ali
Oh, no. I have come to the realization I’ve been getting, like, what? I’ve decided to call it I’m not sure if it’s true. I call it mild panic attacks. Over, like, five years now, I will literally be sitting and be like, oh, my God. Four and a half years left. She’s going to go to college. Oh, my God, what am I going to do? And then 30 seconds later, I’m back to work. And then randomly. Oh, my God. Do you know how much time is left? She goes to college in September.

33:43
Ray
This September?

33:45
Ali
This September.

33:46
Ray
Oh, wow.

33:47
Ali
This September.

33:50
Ray
Cupcakes.

33:51
Ali
I will bribe her with cupcakes, I will bribe her with anything in the planet that I can get so she stays here, I’m telling you, from now.

33:59
Ray
So selfish.

34:00
Ali
Ali I’ve tried, honest. Hand to God. I even talked to my mom about it a few years ago. I’m like, Mama, you don’t understand. I am struggling. I was like, I’m going to be the dad who’s going to be like, no, kid, you got this. You can take care of this. You can whatever’s. Got you. You got the cool. No, I can’t.

34:21
Ray
But you just raised a really good point, which is the fear of parents on the other side, how to be there for your kids, but also dealing with your own fears.

34:33
Ali
It’s tough. It’s very tough. Now that you mentioned it. We were talking about us talking with friends and that scenario, but talking to your kids at whatever different age of their life they’re in, and especially when they hit the teens and the late teens, where they’re going through, amongst a billion other things, hormonal changes and peer pressure, and I got to make sure I’m wearing the right shoes, like ridiculous things. Like I’m wearing the right shoes to oh, wait, I need to whatever. And, oh, I didn’t study right. I need to get I mean, they have so many stresses in their life. On top of it, they have social media, and on top of it, they have these pure influences. Having conversations with them is so difficult because their default is you don’t understand.

35:18
Ray
Have you watched Jenny and Georgia?

35:21
Ali
Yes.

35:22
Ray
So that’s exactly what it’s about. Both are struggling. But the daughter, which is, I think Jenny, she wants her mom to listen to her and to understand where she’s coming from. And Georgia, the mom, all she could think about is that I have done so much to make you reach here. Why can’t you understand? Why aren’t you appreciated?

35:44
Ali
You’ve had it good. I’ve given you everything.

35:46
Ray
I’ve given you everything. I didn’t have it when I was your age. I had you when I was and I was like, oh, God. So this is exactly how it is between parents and kids. So I’m not a parent, but as a kid with being raised by someone who didn’t know how to listen, who didn’t know how to hold space, she was not supportive. She was very abusive mentally and physically and all of that. You know what? Just listen to your kids. If you don’t know how, learn.

36:16
Ali
Yeah.

36:17
Ray
And it’s okay if you do things differently because that means you’re going to learn new things, but that means you’re going to also save the kids from having a trauma for most of their lives. That means you’re going to get to see your kids happy. You’re going to get to see your grandkids happy. And if you really care about their happiness and you really want my kids to be happy and this is all I want for them, prove it.

36:41
Ali
It’s not easy. And I think that’s we never say it’s easy, but it’s assumed that because you’re a parent, magically, you’re supposed to do it right. That’s the one thing you’re not required to have any credentials for, to have a kid. Which is just amazing. You are given the power to create a human and to raise a human without any credentials. You wouldn’t go to a dentist without credentials, would you? And that guy’s just going to do one tooth.

37:09
Ray
But I’ve always said that I wish that would actually change where people could go to a course or to, I don’t know, parenthood university somewhere and learn the basics of being parents, which is holding the space active, listening, not showing up from a place of ego. Because parents do have a high ego, like a big ego. I’m your dad.

37:33
Ali
How dare you say that?

37:33
Ray
How dare you say this to your mom?

37:35
Ali
But see, what then happens is you default to the one place you learned it, which is your parents, and now you’re stuck in that generational repeat trauma.

37:44
Ray
Because you choose to agree.

37:48
Ali
I’m not going to disagree. It’s so frustrating because I see it all the time.

37:51
Ray
Because they choose to because it’s hard work. You just said it. It’s not easy. I don’t want easy. I want comfortable on the long term. It’s a long term investment. People don’t want to invest. They don’t have the patience.

38:03
Ali
And when I call my friends out, I’m like, dude, listen, I think you might be a little upset with me after I say this, but I’m going to say this because this is going to impact the rest of your child’s life. What are you talking about? I’m a bad parent. I’m like, let’s not use that word. I’m going to use the word you used earlier because that’s the one I use. I’m like, you. You can be a better parent than you currently are, and you need to be a better parent every single day. And this is where that incremental change is going to keep adding, and then that clicks in their head, and they’re like, Wait. So I’m not here to judge you. I’m not the expert in anything. And judging you is incorrect because that’s not going to improve your behavior. It’s actually going to enforce bad behavior, worse behavior.

38:47
Ali
What I’m here to tell you is you need to do better. You need to do better. And then I always tell them what my mom told me. She goes, you’re going to learn from everybody in life. You learn from the good that they do, so you do it. You learn from the bad that they do, so you don’t do it. I’m like, open your eyes. Think about how your parents raised you. Think what was good. Think what was not good. That way it wasn’t so long.

39:10
Ray
Accordingly, there’s a video went viral on TikTok. A mom and her, I think, two year, three year old daughter. I don’t know, but they were doing drinks, all right? And then the daughter spilled her drink. As someone watching the video, and as someone who got beaten up a lot.

39:28
Ali
I was like, Disaster about to happen.

39:32
Ray
And then she was like, It’s okay. It’s all right. I was like, what? People went crazy. In a good way. Where thank you for doing this. Because where I come from, were getting beaten. We had this and I’ve seen men, by the way, cry, like, oh, my God, thank you. This mom, she doesn’t realize the impact of exactly this reaction on her daughter. She saved her a lot of therapy. And I was just looking, oh, my God, we’re a f***** up generation.

40:04
Ali
Like I said, I didn’t come to these realizations till way later, because I was raised so differently. I remember when my son, who’s 15 and as tall as me and maybe twice as wide now, when he was about yay big, like, two and a half feet tall, and it was my daughter’s birthday. So me and Abdullah decided to bake a cake. So went in the kitchen. And by the way, he cooks fantastic now. So he was a little toddler. I’m like, let’s bake some cake. Let’s go, Pablo. Let’s bake some cake. So we mixed the batter. We’re like, we’re going to do, like, this gigantic layer cake. I don’t know. We came up with this ridiculous plan, didn’t even make sense. And we have a full time person in the house to take care and cook and everything. You go sit on the side. We got this.

40:45
Ali
We made this giant platter of a cake. And then in my infinite wisdom, I’m like, I got to get it out of the pan. I’ll just flip it on my hand, and then I’ll flip it back in the tray because I was like, the other tray is being used. And my brain did not connect the fact that when I flip it on my hand, it’s going to crumble and fall. So I flipped it on my hand, and it crumbled and fell on the floor. And then both me and Abdullah are looking at this, and I’m like, Bro. And he’s like, Baba. I’m like, Abdullah. He’s like, Baba, we can’t let this go to waste. We literally sat on the floor. We sat on the floor, and we started eating cake off the floor. And then my wife walks in, and she just looks, and she’s like, what in the h*** are you guys doing?

41:29
Ali
I’m like, Woman, walk away or get.

41:31
Ray
A fork and come join us.

41:32
Ali
Exactly. Walk away. We busy. We ate the cake off the kitchen floor, and this was like, you should.

41:40
Ray
Have seen my son’s life.

41:41
Ali
I have never seen him more happy eating cake in his entire life.

41:45
Ray
S*** happens.

41:47
Ali
Okay, like, what? To me, it was, okay, let’s see. I’m not wasting cake. Let’s eat this. But you’re right. So many of my friends would have ended up in a very horrible situation. Again, these dots don’t connect for me.

42:02
Ray
These dots are just a choice. Let’s break the patterns. But the worst part is, a lot of people, they are not aware that there is a pattern to be broken. They think this is the normal yes. What are you talking about? Don’t talk therapy to me. Don’t act like a therapist to me. I’m not. I’m just saying that things are different now. We do things differently. So how about we just do things differently? No. My boys will not be allowed to cry because they’re not weak. Boy, even with people from my age, they still think that their parents way is the best way, because look at me. Nothing is wrong with me. Everything is wrong with you.

42:46
Ali
Oh, my God. The worst statement, I turned out okay. I’m like, no, you didn’t. No, you didn’t. My parents believed in capital, like, beating me up and stuff. I’m like, okay, but I turned out fine.

42:59
Ray
I’m like, no, you didn’t. Exactly. So lack of awareness. Lack of awareness is a huge issue.

43:08
Ali
Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. I think to recap and summarize a little bit, just going back again, we always have similar discussions. I think we definitely need to have more conversations in the house. We definitely need to get the schools and universities more proactive with this. And then ultimately, I think, on a one to one basis, I think it’s very important not to just reach out and ask your friends, how are you doing? Pin it down.

43:37
Ray
Yeah.

43:37
Ali
No, conversation is not down.

43:40
Ray
As if you’re working on a business plan.

43:41
Ali
Conversation is not done.

43:43
Ray
Or the 90 day plan. This is a good thing.

43:46
Ali
Yes.

43:46
Ray
90 day plan. You have your target for 90 days, and then for the month, then for a week, then for a day. Do the same thing.

43:53
Ali
Yes.

43:54
Ray
And if there are two skills that I would like people to start learning religiously is emotional regulation and active listening. Combine those two, I think the planet seriously? Seriously.

44:11
Ali
You’re so right.

44:12
Ray
Just that learn how to listen. And by the way, Simon Sinek, he admitted that he’s a bad listener to people he’s connected with, so he’s a very good listener to clients, but he sucks with his family and friends because.

44:30
Ali
You’Re two different people. I remember this conversation that he was.

44:34
Ray
Having, and I was like, wow. It shows you that it’s a continuous journey of seeing what’s working, what’s not working. How can I be a better person?

44:45
Ali
Self audit?

44:46
Ray
How can I be a better person? Self audit? Wait, why am I calm with this person? But I’m not with that person. Is there something triggering me or I’m taking that person’s kindness for granted because you’re my best friend. It’s fine.

45:00
Ali
I hear you.

45:01
Ray
I see disappointment in your eyes. It’s going to get better. I don’t know when, but it will.

45:07
Ali
See, this is where my mom always used to make fun of me. She’s like, as a kid, you were always angry. You never smiled. I’m like, mom’s smiling in all my pictures, and I don’t have a lot of pictures from when I was a baby and a young toddler. She goes, yeah, you only smiled when you were in the pictures. We never understood why you were so angry at the world. And then you grew up and you were all right. But for me, it’s like, where’s the hammer? I need to fix this now because this p***** me off.

45:36
Ray
So I’m just going to remind you of something you’ve said in the middle of the conversation, and I think you know where this is going. Drop the fix it mindset.

45:45
Ali
Yeah.

45:47
Ray
Only much you can do.

45:50
Ali
How can I get people to listen? People listen.

45:53
Ray
Well, you can’t. That’s the issue. You can’t.

45:55
Ali
I know. I think you got to chip away at it and you got to be very patient and you got to just keep.

46:03
Ray
Because this is not a conversation to take lightly or it’s going to create a huge change in a little time, but in a short time. So we got to keep the conversations going and the message is going to reach those who are ready to listen to it or to take it, receive it. And then I like what he said about this. Let me explore that.

46:26
Ali
Agreed. Fantastic. We are almost out of time. Just to wrap it up, what’s my action plan? What am I doing next to make.

46:36
Ray
An impact and make a change? Someone in need?

46:38
Ali
Both okay.

46:40
Ray
So as a friend, make it your mission to learn how to read someone’s symptoms and then what to do with them, how to talk, how to have a conversation, how to not get offended or triggered or in the let’s fix it zone. So do that as a friend, as someone in need. Not everyone will know how to hold space for you. Just make sure you have one or two people on your list, one as an expert, two as a friend for comfort. And it’s okay to ask for what you need because people are not going to assume or to guess, and most of the time when they do, it’s going to be the wrong choice. So I would come to you. Ali, I’m not feeling well today and it’s so hard for me to ask this, but do you mind if you could just, I don’t know, have a cup of coffee with me.

47:26
Ray
I don’t know. It’s okay. You’re going to feel the burn in your cheeks. It’s going to feel weird, but then you’re not going to regret this.

47:36
Ali
I like it. Thank you so much.

47:38
Ray
Thank you.

47:38
Ali
This is great conversation. As always.

47:40
Ray
As always.

47:42
Ali
That’s all the time we got, guys, today. Subscribe, like follow out and all that other stuff that these influencers tell you.

47:51
Ray
Share. Share.

47:52
Ali
Yes, definitely share. And we will catch you on the next one. Thank you much.