00:10
Ali
Hey, guys, welcome back. We’re here with another episode on our mental health platform. Thank you for listening in. Today’s talk is going to be, I think, a little bit different than what you may have heard with us in the past. I have an amazing guest. I’m going to ask her. Introduce herself in a second. But yes, do hit those, like, subscribe, follow whatever buttons. I don’t even know which ones there are, but you guys do. So would you like to introduce yourself?

00:34
Nora
Yes. Thank you so much for having me here and for this opportunity. My name is Nura Bach, and I am a breakup recovery coach. And I’ve been doing this work for a couple of years now. And basically what that means is that I help people who are struggling with heartbreak or breakup or divorce and kind of coaching them to go to a place where they’re feeling on the path of recovery and that the breakup is past them.

01:04
Ali
Thank you so much for being here. This is great.

01:06
Nora
Thank you.

01:07
Ali
So we’ve always talked about individual mental health and how a person is and how they’re feeling and how we’re not talking about it and the stigmas associated with and all of these things. But a very huge aspect of people or humans is human relationships. And I was having a very interesting discussion with a friend just last week about why people keep finding the wrong people for them, and then they kind of get into relationships that they shouldn’t have gotten into relationships with. And then things change and people grow. And, I mean, it could be 100 different things that are going on. But what I’ve always found very interesting, or rather more interesting than why people get into the bad relationships is why do they struggle to get out of them and what exactly are they waiting for to tell them that it’s time to get out of a bad relationship or a relationship that’s not working?

01:56
Ali
I don’t want to use the word bad.

01:57
Nora
Let’s say no.

01:58
Ali
A non functional relationship. I think let’s start with that. Tell me a little bit more about why you think people struggle to get out of relationships that aren’t working.

02:07
Nora
Okay, that’s a really great question. I think even in nontoxic relationships and non abusive relationships, it can be really hard to exit just because we have hope. Sometimes we love the person so much and the love is there. And I think it takes us a long time to realize that the love might not be enough. And I think as a culture, we also idealize this idea that love is sometimes enough. And then with time and with experience and maybe staying in that relationship and seeing how much it’s not working, we arrive at that conclusion that love is sometimes not enough. And I think that’s a long, hard journey, and sometimes you just really want to hold on. And I think in the case of toxic relationships. It’s a lot more complicated, like why someone might stay in that relationship for a long time. And I think the number one reason is because in the beginning of this kind of relationship, or any relationship really, but especially in those kind of toxic relationships, there’s like a love bombing stage in the beginning and you feel like you’re on cloud nine because someone is loving you so much and putting you on this pedestal.

03:22
Nora
And then the moment you kind of become human or make a mistake or you have some kind of flaw, you kind of like fall off that pedestal so fast. And I think people get really stuck when they are trying to get back up on that pedestal and they get stuck kind of trying to explain like, hey, I’m not that person you think I am. And they get stuck trying to change their image inside of their partner’s head and the other person kind of already made up their mind or they maybe like you being in that position because it gives them some leverage and some control. So I think that’s why people get trapped in toxic relationships specifically.

04:04
Ali
Yeah, that’s interesting. Then what you said, it makes me think of a lot of the relationships when we get into them, are we really even presenting our true selves? I mean, have the movies and the socials have they glorified and overly romanticized relationships, do you think?

04:23
Nora
I think that, yeah. We probably don’t enter being like 100% ourselves. We’re always trying to put on a good show. But I don’t think this is the same as being deceptive or lying. I mean, those are very different things. I definitely think our cultural environment definitely impacts the way that we think about love. And it’s something we cannot actually emphasize enough, like how much it impacts us because things like movies or books, they give us so much scripts and so much frameworks. They give us things like what is the man supposed to do and what is the woman’s role? And also, how do you repair conflict? Sometimes in movies you learn that repairing conflict is through big grand gestures, but they never shown the movie, the hard and tough conversations you have in the back of the scene. So I think, yes, we learn a lot from those things.

05:21
Nora
And then we also have really high expectations of how easy it is to be in a relationship because even in a very good relationship, there’s so much work that happens behind the scenes. And I think obviously, movies don’t show us that. And I think a lot of times we feel like the first sign of conflict, the first sign of a trouble, we want to just immediately exit because it’s not the fantasy that we’ve kind of been sold.

05:50
Ali
Yeah, I hear what you’re saying. It makes sense also because if that’s the exposure that we have and this is what we’re told that this is what love is supposed to be. And I think maybe we go in with a false impression of what the reality of a partnership or a companionship should be and when in the process of figuring out who we want as a significant other, someone we want to live life with, grow with. I think a lot of these conversations aren’t even had prior to jumping into a relationship. So taking a relationship to the next level or getting into marriage, you’re still in that pre honeymoon phase. And then they say after you get married, you’re in the honeymoon phase and then it fizzles out and then it’s what? Survival? Nobody kind of wants to talk about the whole package. They just want to talk about the nice stuff that you see in the movies.

06:39
Nora
Exactly. I don’t know if, like, survival is the word I would use that sounds so grim, but depends who you’re talking to.

06:48
Ali
I got some people who would be survival would be a good word.

06:53
Nora
I think it’s more like sustaining. I think love is something like you have to sustain and it’s something very active. It’s a noun, right? Like I love you, but it’s also a verb. Like I love. I do things to nurture this love. I do things to feed this love. And I think that doesn’t always look pretty. It can sometimes have really tough conversations. Sometimes you have to realize, like, you are also really toxic and some things you have to take ownership for your part of that dynamic and yeah, it’s really tough.

07:30
Ali
I’m glad you brought that up. I very rarely talk to anybody who will start by saying, hey man, I was being toxic or I was being wrong. It’s always the other person. And then when you hear them out and I only do this with very close friends and I’m like, brother, you’re a toxic brother in this situation, you’re the toxic one. And then it’s like a reality check for them. I’m like, look, you cannot operate with the assumption that the world works only from your perspective. Yeah, it’s somebody else’s perspective. And you have gotten together because you want to share a life together, which means you need to, well, first, understand that there is another person’s perspective on life. And second, you need to listen to that perspective. And then third, you need to figure out where your common ground is in that. And I think a lot of the relationships that I have seen amongst friends and whatnot fall apart, most of them, as far as I can tell, go back to bad communication.

08:30
Ali
I don’t think were ever taught how to be good communicators.

08:35
Nora
Yeah, just on that first point, you mentioned that so many people are not willing to admit their side of how they acted in harmful ways, et cetera. I think that this also ties back to kind of a discourse as a culture that we have that really divides people into good and bad, especially the way we talk about relationships and breakups. There’s always like a villain, there’s an a******, there’s someone who is bad. And I think this is so damaging and I think that it really also discourages us from looking at ourselves because we don’t want to be in that a****** category. We don’t want to be in that bad guy category. And there’s very little nuance when it comes to the conversation around breakup and relationships in general, even something like cheating or infidelity. I think it’s something so complex and there’s definitely a story behind this.

09:32
Nora
I don’t think that people who cheat are necessarily bad or a******* or that relationship is doomed for life or something like that. But I think most people when they talk about something like this, they would just be like, oh, dump him, SIS. People don’t change, he’s going to do it again, et cetera. So I think this kind of binary of good and bad that we keep reinforcing, it makes people really scared to own the parts of themselves that could be harmful, which really it could be any of us and any kind of situation that could be triggering us. We could exhibit harmful behaviors. And then what was the other thing you talked about?

10:10
Ali
Because I forgot now I think I blanked what I was just saying. Yeah, I was talking about how all the people that I’ve met, my friends who have talked to me about relationships, it always seems to be rooted in bad communication.

10:24
Nora
Okay, yeah, I think that’s really interesting because I kind of don’t agree. I think having good communication, obviously it’s so important, but I also feel like it’s not everything and I think that there’s an over focus on communication. Yeah, because sometimes you be communicating, you just don’t like what the other person is saying or you can’t accept it.

10:49
Ali
I like what you said there. So if you’re not going to listen, then communication doesn’t really work, does it?

10:53
Nora
Yeah, I think a lot more like I would love to have more of a conversation about acceptance, like acceptance that we are not all perfect. And I think now there’s so much content on social media and stuff about how to be a good communicator and how to be the perfect partner and how to do your relationship right. And it’s like, dude, can we not just be imperfect as well and hold space for that and accept parts of ourselves and our partners that are not going to be 100% fixed? And I think this is another thing that adds pressure, okay? If my partner is not like 100% perfect like the posts on Instagram say that he should be, then it’s wrong.

11:35
Ali
False advertising, I guess. Anytime I talk to my friends, I said, look, I’ve always had a very, I guess, very unique approach to all types of relationships, whether it be friendship or more. And that’s been that for me. If I meet somebody for the first time there’s a default baseline level of respect and trust and after that baseline you will either earn it or it will go into a negative. And for me that has always been a constant. Yet I make sure that I earn my friends trust and respect through how I interact with them, through how I deal with them, through how I listen to them and vice versa. And I feel that is really pivotal in building quality friendships and relationships even. But circling back to talking about communication and holding space. I think you kind of, like, really hit the nail on the head when you said holding space for the other person and accepting their imperfections and understanding that they’re only human.

12:30
Ali
And having that false idea of them living up to these three checklist instagram posts is just not realistic. And I think we have to find that balance perhaps between understanding and forgiving. But ultimately it’s that safe space. The friends that I feel closest to, these are the ones that I am able to hold space for and understanding and patience for and they do the same for me. And I don’t know, there’s a lot to be said about relationships which are one sided or one party is putting most of the effort and the other party is not. I feel that in a lot of those cases one individual hits burnout at some point and says, you know what? I’ve been doing so much for so long you don’t seem to be bothered enough. I’m out. And then the other person would say, wait, I’m here to do something but you never told me I was supposed to do something.

13:21
Nora
Yeah.

13:21
Ali
So what do you think about that? Do you feel that a lot of relationships that have reached their end it’s because one side was trying and the other wasn’t?

13:30
Nora
I think most relationships end because of that, right? Like they usually end because one person wants to be there and wants to work on it and the other person for a variety of reasons, doesn’t want that anymore. It could be that they had a life change. It could be that they are going through grief and that gave them a different perspective on life or they’re not being themselves or maybe they’re having some kind of crisis or maybe their values changed or maybe whatever it is, it all does come down to yeah, someone wants to work on it and the other person doesn’t. And sometimes in rare cases you have people who mutually agree like this is not working anymore. This is an example, I think where sometimes communication doesn’t always fix the problem. Like you can tell someone over and over again like hey, I want more from you.

14:26
Nora
Or this need is not being fulfilled for me. Or I’m feeling that this relationship is not reciprocal. This friendship is not reciprocal. That person could be like yeah, and they could hear you and stuff like that. But at what point do you kind of look at their actions and kind of make a decision based on that? I think in this we can fall into that trap of over communicating and not seeing, like what’s right in front of us and thinking that if we change our style of communication, if we say it like this or if we say it like that, or maybe if they weren’t so avoidant or maybe if they weren’t like a lot and it’s like at some point you have to accept this person is like that. And no matter what way you communicate it, that’s not going to change it. And you have to kind of make that decision yourself.

15:16
Nora
Do I put distance? Do I exit this relationship? Et cetera.

15:20
Ali
I like what you said over there about communication and action. And anytime I’ve talked to my friends, I always tell them the same thing. I’m like, look, whatever you’re feeling, something is off or something’s not right with your friends or your spouse or your significant other, but you keep thinking like, well, but the person is talking, the person is communicating. I’m like, look, if there’s the difference between the talk and the action, if it gets big, this means the talk isn’t true. Because if the action doesn’t back up what they were talking, that means they weren’t sincere about it, or they’re just doing lip service to make everything sound the way it’s supposed to sound. But if there’s no follow up with the action, somebody says, hey, you know what? Let’s go out next weekend. It’s been a while, I haven’t seen you. I’m like, no problem, buddy.

16:06
Ali
Let’s go out next weekend. Okay, that’s great. And then that conversation just like nothing gets planned out of it. There’s no action. There’s no follow up that says, hey, yeah, remember we talked about planning something next weekend? How about we go here? Or how about we go here? Or somebody says, yeah, I’ll show up. And then last minute, oh yeah, something came up. I can’t show up. And you’ve already made plans and the group is there and this one person is always missing.

16:30
Nora
Yeah.

16:30
Ali
So I think maybe that gap between the talk and the do or the conversation and the action pertaining to conversation, it’s always kind of been enlightening to me. I remember my Angelou, I believe she said that listen to people, they tell you who they are. And what I took away from that is listening is not just hearing what they’re saying, but watching what they’re doing.

16:52
Nora
Right? Yeah, 100%.

16:54
Ali
Tell me a little bit more. I want to switch to the other side of the fence now. I want to talk about post breakup. So whatever the cause may be either mutually agreed or not agreed upon. And now you’re kind of out of this situation, and some people are out of like a very short term situation where nothing significant is going on. And then some people have been in a longer relationship or a marriage, even with kids even, and then they need to exit out of it. What’s the common things that you’re getting from the people that you talk to who have exited the relationship? What are they feeling?

17:28
Nora
Yeah, I think heartbreak can even happen in short situations, by the way, or like, situationships. I’ve seen it happen. I have clients who experience such a thing. So I think heartbreak is an experience. Sometimes it has to do with the length of a relationship, and other times, no. And not every heartbreak is a breakup, and not every breakup is a heartbreak. So sometimes you just break up. Breaking up is like the act of ending a relationship. But I think heartbreak is like an experience that you go through, and it’s very specific. It doesn’t happen every time. And I think the first thing that happens when someone is heartbroken is like I call it the first stage, which is the shock, and you’re just thrown off completely. Even if you saw it coming, you could be very blindsided, very shocked. You could be really not functional for a while, maybe a few weeks or a couple of months.

18:22
Nora
You’re just not going to be yourself. And I recommend for a lot of people in that stage to take some time off work if they need to and just create the conditions that will make you feel safe to fall apart, because that’s what ultimately ends up helping you later to have that safe container, to just process all those negative feelings. And I think that first stage, it can last around, like, three months, where you’re just feeling like absolute trash. And then after that, I think you start to stabilize. You start to be a little bit more functional. You’re eating better, you’re sleeping better. You can focus at work. You can see friends. You’re not crying all the time, and you’re able to kind of take breaks from the grief that you’re experiencing, but it’s still like, the overwhelming thing on your mind, like when you’re free.

19:10
Nora
And I think this is the stage where it’s really beneficial to get some help if you’re feeling stuck. And I would say the last stage of breakup, which is very interesting. It’s kind of when you’re kind of almost over it, you’re like, 90% over it, but that scares you in a way, because it’s like, oh, my God, I’m actually forgetting this person. I’m forgetting the memories. I’m forgetting everything about them. And there’s almost this kind of like I want to not forget it completely. And in this stage, I see a lot of people, for example, they keep that wound alive sometimes. They will look at social media, they will look at pictures, they will look at old messages and intentionally keep this wound alive because it keeps them connected to their ex in some way. And I think at this point, when you have the most power to be like, this is a decision that I need to take at this point to close this door, it’s not necessarily about how you’re feeling and feelings that you can’t control.

20:09
Nora
Like this part you can definitely control, and you can be like, okay, I’m closing this door.

20:15
Ali
Why do you think that is? Why do we find people looking at their exes instas and stalking and reminiscing? And like you said, I like how you phrased it. They keep the wound open. Why are we doing this? Seems very counterintuitive.

20:30
Nora
I think a lot of things about the heartbreak experience are not logical. And I have to admit I’ve done it too. I’ve stalked my ex’s, social media and whatever. And honestly, I think it’s a way of staying connected to that person. I think it’s a way of not feeling excluded, almost.

20:49
Ali
Do you think it’s about feeling like a failure? Like, I don’t want to feel like a failure because I feel that the relationship is maybe that part of it.

20:57
Nora
I don’t think that’s connected to social media, stalking and stuff, but I have heard people that express this sentiment. Like, I feel like if we break up or if we have a divorce, then it’s going to be a failure, which I don’t agree with.

21:12
Ali
Do you think that feeling is more societal pressures? That, oh, what will everybody say? Oh, look, you were with this person, you were married for like, whatever, 510 years, and now you’re going to divorce. Oh, you’re going to be a divorced person. Do you think it’s how society sees them as less? Do you think that creates peer pressure?

21:31
Nora
Yeah, 100%. That’s definitely a factor. We’re still living in a society where it’s much less stigmatized than before, but it’s still something that it’s not super normalized. And I think also, even if it’s not a divorce, even if it’s a breakup, people do feel a sense of failure sometimes when their relationship ends. And I think it’s also associated to other feelings. Like, maybe I’m not good enough, or maybe if I tried this or that, or if only I did that thing, or if I only didn’t make that one mistake and stuff like that. And I think we also think that learning about relationships is the same as learning about any other thing. Like, you pick up a book and read about it or you take a course about it and it’s like it really couldn’t be further from the truth. Because even if you have the best books on relationships, the best mentor, the best therapist, whatever, the only thing that’s going to be such a powerful teacher to you is your own life experiences.

22:28
Ali
But that’s hard.

22:29
Nora
It’s hard. But also, I don’t think we should see it as a failure for relationship ends. That doesn’t mean that time wasted. No, you had fun with that person. You had amazing moments with that person. You learned a lot with that person. You had beautiful times with that person. If that person wasn’t in your life, you’d be sitting there.

22:51
Ali
I hear you on that. But I also hear a lot of my friends when they’re fresh out of a breakup, like, oh, I can’t believe I wasted so much time with her or so much time with him.

22:59
Nora
Yeah.

23:00
Ali
And I think part of it that’s right. But the other part of that is, well, you did share wonderful moments together. It just so happened that the not so wonderful moments exceeded the wonderful wow. And you ended up with like a net negative experience.

23:13
Nora
I think it’s also really common for someone fresh out of a breakup to have very extreme thoughts like that. And you might ask that person like a year later and they might say, actually, I don’t feel that way anymore. I don’t feel like it was a huge waste of time or I regret it. I actually learned a lot, and now I can look back with a more neutral lens differently.

23:36
Ali
I like that, looking back with a more neutral lens. And I think you’re right. It just takes more time for us to process and get it out of our system and to understand the situation better.

23:45
Nora
Yeah.

23:46
Ali
Let me ask you something. Have you noticed a difference between men and women in how they handle these things?

23:52
Nora
Honestly, not that much. I mean, I think there’s not one central experience for women and one central experience for men. I think a lot of people would be surprised to know that a lot of men suffer a lot as well. And also if the person was the one who broke up or the one who was being broken up with, both can also really suffer. And I think maybe the one thing I found very interesting about men is I’ve noticed I don’t know if it’s true I need to have a bigger sample size, but they are more okay with not having everything make sense. I noticed, like, for example, if they had a breakup that they didn’t have closure or their ex just gave them like a vague reason or maybe they didn’t give them a reason at all. They’re kind of just like, you know whatever, it’s done, I’m going to move on.

24:44
Nora
I think with a lot of women, sometimes they get stuck in that place where they’re like, but why? But why? But why? But why? I need it to make sense. I really need it to make sense. Obviously, this is not across the board, but I have noticed that men, even if they’re in a lot of pain and stuff, sometimes they don’t need everything to make sense to commit to moving on.

25:04
Ali
Again, I don’t think I have a large enough sample size either, but I’m just reflecting back to all my years and my friends and whatnot and I kind of have always noticed that it’s the woman who goes back to give the relationship a second shot. Even though the guy is terrible. We know the guy is terrible because she doesn’t have the why. And a lot of times I think I’m like, are you just going back into the relationship, into a bad relationship, knowing it’s a bad relationship to find the why, to break up again? Sometimes I don’t get it, but it makes sense. What you said makes a lot of sense now when I reflect back to the conversations that I’ve had with the people I know. But that’s very interesting, and I’m sure there’s more data and there’s more insight into the differences between how the genders handle breakups.

25:46
Ali
That’s very interesting. One of the things I remember that were on our initial call with, that I talked to you about that I wanted to bring into today’s podcast. Anytime we talk about the whole breakup thing, automatically everyone close their eyes are going to see like this young couple in college and they’re just getting to know each other and whatever. But what about people who have kids who are teenagers, they’ve been married 1520 years, and then they’re getting a divorce. How you seen that and how have you seen your clients being able to handle that?

26:17
Nora
Yeah, it can be a really different kind of experience. I think when you’re with someone that long, it can be many different scenarios. It could be that if you didn’t have a big heartbreak before and that is your first heartbreak, which happens in your it can be really intense. And a lot of people have that experience. They get their heartbroken as a teenager, and a lot of people don’t have that experience. Their first heartbreak is when they are 40, is when they’re 50. And I think a lot of times in those cases, people feel like something is wrong. I’m going crazy, I’m going insane. It shouldn’t be this hard. And it’s like, no, it’s just your first heartbreak. People are like, oh, but I had a breakup when I was 21, and I was like, yeah, but it probably wasn’t a heartbreak. I think another experience is sometimes when you’re with someone for that long and if you’re unsatisfied in the relationship or unhappy in some way for a really long time, you already grieve the ending of the relationship when you’re still in it.

27:20
Nora
So by the time you exit, you’re kind of just ready to start living your life. So sometimes that’s one of the two experiences I’ve seen with the group of people who are a little bit older and experiencing divorce. Some people are just so exhausted by a divorce that I think also the feelings around divorce and breakup can be quite different because I think someone who is in a divorce process could take a really long time. By the end of the divorce, they’re kind of just like. I’m glad this over. It’s over the bureaucratic nightmare of it. There’s that whole bureaucratic element and legal element that you have to deal with which can be so exhausting, so financially draining. And I think a lot of people going through divorce when they’re struggling with divorce, it can overlap with heartbreak, but it has its own set of struggles, of course, with also custody and all this kind of stuff.

28:12
Nora
There’s a lot of layers to it. So sometimes for those people, they kind of just want it to be over. They want to be free. Yeah.

28:22
Ali
I have a few friends who have gotten divorced in their late thirty s and early 40s. Some had kids, some didn’t have kids. And very rightfully, what you said, it was just such a drawn out paperwork and legal process that it was just exhausting. And at the end of it they were just glad that it’s over with. But I think the only thing that really complicated the situation for them was when the significant other wanted to create trouble and make the process even more difficult out of whatever reason. And I think that situation is tough as it is, as you said. But then when you have kids involved and if the kids are younger, it’s significantly more difficult. Kids, I think once they get into their late teens, they’ve seen enough of the world to understand, okay, our parents aren’t really compatible. Maybe they were at one point, they’re not anymore and they’ll just be happy if they just go their own way.

29:16
Nora
Yeah.

29:17
Ali
Have you had conversations where you find couples just trying to make things work for the sake of the kids?

29:25
Nora
Definitely. Yeah, because a lot of people, sometimes they come to me when they’re not broken up yet, but they’re considering it and there are kids involved and with those people usually because every situation is unique. So I cannot give a generic recommendation. So it becomes more about asking them the questions to get to know their situation a bit better. And what I do in that situation is just help them envision all the different kinds of outcomes that are possible and all the different options that they could take. So is it like maybe you separate but you live in the same house? Maybe you separate but you don’t live in the same house? Maybe you divorce, maybe you stay together for the kids until they reach this kind of certain age or reach some kind of milestone. And what would that look like, living together in a house where you are bound to be by circumstances until so how do you create the conditions to be healthy or create your own kind of independence while you’re still living together?

30:27
Nora
So it can be so many different kinds of options based on the situation.

30:32
Ali
It’s interesting. I like the perspective that you brought to this because again, we go back to where we started our conversation is that everyone just feels like everything has to be so binary.

30:42
Nora
Yeah.

30:42
Ali
I’ll be honest with you, I haven’t seen a lot of couples that I know who have gone through divorce, who were able to be pleasant with each other afterwards. The few that I know who are on friendly terms, to put it politely, is the ones who had kids who were older and they were able to say, okay, you know what? Fine. We’ve drifted, or whatever’s happened, you enjoy your life, I’ll enjoy mine. And when it comes to the matters of the kids, now we are going to team up and co parent, essentially. But most of them, unfortunately. And I think it’s just sad that if you’re going to be vindictive towards somebody else, you’re going to take it out on the kids. In my mind, that’s very petty, but that’s what I’ve seen happen, especially when the kids are younger, you’ll find one or both filling the ears of these young ones against the other parents.

31:29
Ali
Like, oh, your parent wasn’t so bad. Your parent, the other parent did this and that and so on and so forth. And then I think this really screws the kids up if they’re at a young age. Like I said, I think, I don’t know, 1415 and older, especially with access to the internet and social and the kids that they have in their circles at school, I think they have enough exposure to understand what’s going on. But nonetheless, I think the process really can’t be easy. So let’s change a little bit perspectives on things. Let’s talk about I’m in a relationship. Let me set up a scenario for I’m in a relationship. I see it about to crash and burn, and I know there’s no way that this is going to recover. We’re just two very different people. We were great at dating, but then with time, we realized that we’re just too different for whatever reason, right?

32:16
Ali
So now I know this is an eventuality that’s going to happen, and then it happens. So what can I do that’s healthy for me to kind of come out of this process in the best way?

32:30
Nora
I think in the very beginning stages, don’t try to rush the insights or the learning too fast because you’re going to maybe be very devastated. Maybe it’s best for you to focus on just getting yourself to a good baseline of eating well, sleeping well, functioning well, calming your nervous system. So I wouldn’t recommend, for example, jumping straight into reading books and going to therapy and blah, blah, right when you’re super fresh out of it. Because I think when you rush it too fast, it becomes people who rush it like that, they might be just be like, I want to get my Xbox. What are the quick tips to get the Xbox? And I don’t think you learn when you’re in such a panicked state like.

33:16
Ali
What you said there. You need to learn this is what’s important, because you could just say in the same thing, I want to either get my ex back or I want to jump to the next person because I can’t be a failure in a relationship. So I think, like you said, that gap is important for learning. Excellent.

33:28
Nora
Exactly. And then I think the second stage, you need to have the safe circumstances for you to actually also think about, how did I contribute? Tough question. Yeah, but what makes it easier? It makes it easier to have people around you that are not going to vilify you, are going to be compassionate with you, even if you made a mistake or working with someone like a therapist or a coach who can provide that non judgmental and compassionate space for you. And I think it’s also really important to not take responsibility for things that you should not be responsible for. Because I think a lot of times people blame themselves for everything or start thinking I’m not good enough, or this happened because I’m not worthy, et cetera. And sometimes it’s like, dude, that person is just an a******, and you need to let that responsibility be theirs.

34:23
Nora
You can’t be like, absorbing everything. And a lot of times it’s a mixture of the two things, right? In a non abusive setting, there are parts that you would own and that your partner would own. Okay, maybe you were very controlling because you were scared of a certain outcome. Maybe you’ve been cheated on before. So in order to protect yourself, you were like a little bit controlling. And maybe that person, their mistake was okay, not communicating, that this was intense. Or maybe they can reassure you in a way so that they help you with not exercising this control. So kind of thinking about how problems are always collaborative or a lot of the times and what part do we own and what part do the other person own? And also not being so hard on ourselves. Because let’s say if I’m someone who struggles with control issues, I could maybe struggle with that for the rest of my life.

35:24
Nora
And it just becomes about accepting that this is something I struggle with. All I can do is get better at managing this. Maybe I’m never going to eliminate this. And I’m still lovable. I’m still lovable. I still deserve love. I still am going to get love. Because a lot of people find love. No one’s perfect, right? Like some people, you know, who are really not perfect, and they find love. So everyone has their thing or two or three. And I think when you accept that about yourself, it actually becomes easier to work on it because you don’t feel like what you said before, like a quote unquote failure for not being perfect in some way.

36:03
Ali
Thank you for sharing that’s wonderful insight. And one of the things that just stuck out to me, what you just mentioned is am I deserving of love? When you mentioned that, a lot of stories and a lot of people popped into my head over the years. The friends that I have talked to and the situations that I have seen, and I always used to find it I don’t want to use the word shocking, but I always used to find it in a combination of curious and awe that why would someone feel that they’re not deserving of love? Shouldn’t everyone feel that they are deserving of love? Does a breakup cause you to feel that, or is that something you always felt? And then it got kind of like, magnified? What do you think?

36:42
Nora
Yeah, I mean, I’ve been thinking about this, actually, like, statements like, maybe I’m not worthy of love, or I don’t deserve it, or I’m not good enough, or I’m too much and I don’t believe in it. I don’t think it’s a thing. I don’t think that there’s, like, something scoring us of, hey, Ali is worthy of love. Or ali’s deserving of love. And nuda is like, three out of ten. Deserving of love and Ali is a seven out of ten. Or Ali is seven out of ten good enough, and nuda is like, two out of ten. No one is ranking this stuff.

37:17
Ali
But why do people feel that then?

37:19
Nora
I think it’s stories that we invest in and we tell ourselves, and we can change them. It’s very easy to fall into a story that you’re telling yourself and think it’s objective truth. I like it.

37:32
Ali
You shift the narrative, we shift the perspective.

37:35
Nora
And it’s very hard to do that, of course, when you’re in a lot of pain or if you’ve had so many experiences that I got dumped three times. All my major relationships ended up with me being dumped or me being cheated on or me being what. So it’s like, okay, but that is like a sample size of three people or even ten, even 100 people, is, like, a really small sample size. But it’s like, people make these kind of stories. They think that they are objective truths about themselves. And a lot of my work as a breakup coach is actually really getting you to challenge this thought and really getting you to understand that, listen, this is not an objective truth. This is something you can exit thinking about, and it’s not serving you. It’s not serving you to think like this.

38:24
Ali
I think you’re right. I agree with you 100%, and it makes sense. I was talking to a friend, and I was telling her, I’m like, look, to me, the worst lie you can tell is a lie you tell yourself.

38:35
Nora
Yeah.

38:36
Ali
And I think this is exactly it. This is a lie that you’re telling yourself, and it’s the worst because you believe it.

38:41
Nora
It colors your whole world.

38:43
Ali
And then you’re basically exactly as you said, it taints your perspective on everything. Yeah, I think that’s very interesting. I was reading something a few days ago and when I talked to my friends actually just recently, I was talking to somebody two days ago about this and I had read this, I think last week maybe it was about grief and I don’t remember exactly. Something along the lines of that grief is essentially love that has nowhere to go. Yeah, it could be someone a loved one that you have lost or a relationship that you have broken up with, but you still carry that love and now you got nowhere to put it. And now since it’s got nowhere to go, it becomes grief. And I sat with that for a while to think about it. And I remember texting a friend, I’m like, what do you think about this?

39:24
Ali
And then a conversation came out of it. Well, the topic we’re talking about is not a pleasant one, but the reality of the situation is I think we all need to work on it. Then like you said, a lot of learning needs to happen and we need to hold space for ourselves and give it time and then work with somebody.

39:43
Nora
There’s so much parallels between grief and heartbreak and I think the lessons that you can get from either grief or heartbreak, they will really help you in any tough time in your life. And working with someone like a breakup coach, that’s going to give you the tools to be resilient in any kind of tough situation in your life.

40:04
Ali
Well, great. Thank you so much. So before we wrap up, please share with the audience where we can find you.

40:11
Nora
Yes. So you can find me on Instagram. My name on Instagram is breakup coach Nora. So N-O-R-A. That’s how I spell my name, but I pronounce it Nora. But yeah. So. Breakup. Coach. Nora. And I guess you will tag me as well. Yes, I will pronounce that. I’m also on TikTok. Yeah. And I have a website which is breakupcoachnora.com, and there you can find all about me and my services and all the ways we can work together.

40:38
Ali
So, yeah, fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time out to come talk to everybody today.

40:44
Nora
Thank you.

40:45
Ali
Great conversation and even more wonderful insight. Lots to think about. And the only thing I’m going to just add to close it out is I think we need to be humble with ourselves and we need to be kind to ourselves, definitely. And then I think that’s where you start the rest of the journey towards recovery always.

41:02
Nora
That’s the root of getting through difficult times.

41:05
Ali
Really great. Thank you. Thank you so much.