S03E04 – Friendships – The Good The Bad And The Ugly – Ray

00:10
Ali
Guess who? It’s me again. You like that, right? I’m back. As if you were expecting somebody different. I’m back with my good buddy Ray. She’s over here. And as usual, we have conversations over shisha that we’re like. This should be a podcast. This should be a podcast. So we finally gave in and put together a notion page where we’re putting all our ideas together. There’s way more ideas than ours in the universe for all the stuff that we would love to talk about. So we filtered and we prioritized. I think today’s talk is going to be something that’s controversial. Controversial but very relevant. Very relevant. We’re talking about friendships, not relationships. That’s going to be another peg and another jump that we definitely need to have another discussion about. About. Right. But friendships have gotten very tricky and very interesting and I want to talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly about friendships.

01:05
Ali
So before we get in, quick intro, please.

01:08
Ray
Yes, my name is Rahaf, founder of Rays Mental Health and I raise a lot of awareness on mental health and well being, especially for men. I like to or my mission is to bridge the gap between awareness and action. Yes.

01:25
Ali
Great. Let’s get started. This would be the perfect time to insert a word from our sponsors. But since we have none, I’m just going to say drink more water, be more healthy.

01:36
Ray
Smoothie.

01:38
Ali
Have a good smoothie. Great. So let’s talk about it. What’s the problem? Why don’t we have good friends? Or are all friends good or are they not?

01:48
Ray
That’s what I like about our conversations is every question roots more questions to it. Like when you said, Why don’t we have good friends? I was like, Define good friends.

01:59
Ali
Yeah, I think that’s a perfect place to start.

02:03
Ray
Define good friends. Because what a good friend might be for you might be something else for someone else. But if were to just list traits that should be in a healthy friendship, a good friend would be someone who would take you as you are.

02:24
Ali
Okay.

02:25
Ray
Not wear the hat of a fixer.

02:28
Ali
Agreed.

02:29
Ray
That’s a tough one to answer. You don’t have to have similar interests or hobbies, but you have to have at least two or three core values aligned in harmony because that will leave less space for misunderstandings, judgments, the blaming, war. Why haven’t you called? Why haven’t you picked up? Why haven’t you done this? Why haven’t you done that? Come with us. DA DA. And there will be lots of accountability in the friendship.

03:00
Ali
I like that. I like that. I think accountability is something people skip.

03:04
Ray
Yes. Again, I’m describing what I would love to see in a friend because I am that friend. Accountability is very important because I don’t need a yes friend anymore. I’m not in high school. I need someone to call out my bullshit when I do something wrong. And again, underline the word wrong means harmful.

03:24
Ali
Yes.

03:25
Ray
It doesn’t mean wrong to you.

03:27
Ali
Yes. Not your opinion.

03:29
Ray
Wrong.

03:30
Ali
Wrong.

03:30
Ray
Because wrong means I’m doing things that are harmful that are not aligned with my path, my journey, my values, whatever it is. So someone yes. To hold me accountable. Someone to push me out of my comfort zone without being pushy.

03:49
Ali
I hear you on that. I like it. I think all of us look at things from different perspectives, and one of the reasons you and me have great conversation is we’re able to hear each other’s perspective. And in some cases we relate to it, in some cases we don’t. There’s things we disagree on. But it’s always entertaining for me. It’s very entertaining to find things that we disagree on because then you back it up with some explanation, I back mine up with my explanation and gives us great.

04:15
Ray
But we never project.

04:16
Ali
No. I think that’s part of being that’s.

04:19
Ray
Part of being a good friend. Not to project your insecurities, your thoughts, your limiting beliefs on your friend.

04:26
Ali
Agreed. Agreed. And not just project, not to even impose your belief. I respect you. For you, I respect the space, and I expect same vice versa. So for me, I think my approach to friendship and again, we’re talking about the same coin, different sides to it, right? So my approach to friendship has always been based on trust and respect. For me, trust and respect is our foundation blocks.

04:52
Ray
But here’s my question to you. Let’s say you met someone, okay, potentially a good friend. You could see it. Is the trust natural or they have to earn it?

05:04
Ali
No, I think this is just me now, right? I’m not telling how the world should no. So for me, if I meet anybody that I have not met before, we walk in zero, no, negative, no, positive, neutral. I walk in with a neutral level. And for me, trust and respect needs to be earned both ways. There needs to be reciprocity when it comes to respect. And that’s not like, oh, you need to do something for me. No, I hear you. Just something with normal channels of communication. Am I communicating with this person? And they’re communicating back with me? Respect. Respect. Okay, great. Is this person ghosting me or whatever, or there’s something off. These are immediate I don’t want to say red flags, but these are immediate incompatibilities, which tell me it’s not going to work. So for me, respect and trust is something that we walk in with neutral and then we build.

05:53
Ali
And the more we build, the better quality interaction we can have. So this is the first thing for me. The second thing for me is an understanding of how life is designed. Life is designed to be a journey, right? It’s not designed to be destination based because the destination is a hole in the ground. Let’s be real. So if I’m going to live my life. And this is the journey of my life. My life can be measured in minutes. And what we know with the physics.

06:24
Ray
Of the universe when you said that.

06:26
Ali
To me the first time yes. And the physics of the universe tells me I can’t pause it, and I can’t undo or repeat it or borrow.

06:34
Ray
It or lend it or not any of this.

06:35
Ali
So this is the physics of the universe. That time is that constant that I can’t change. So in this journey, I measure my life in the minutes, and in the minutes that I find value in spending with somebody else. So in this journey, our paths may overlap. If I find that in this overlap, I find spending those minutes to add value to me. Not like, oh, I’m making a business connection. No, add value to me in does spending time with this person bring me peace? Does it bring me joy? Does it feed my soul? Does it feed my brain?

07:14
Ray
Yes.

07:15
Ali
I have a friend, and I’ve told them a couple of times, we sat, and I was like, you know, I got to tell you something. These are minutes well spent. But not only that, today it was beyond minutes well spent. Today, this was spinach for my soul, you remember? So what was different quality of interaction. And I think that gets to my third thing. So first, it’s how I’m planning to spend minutes of my life, how I’m planning to share my life with you. Because not to sound like an a**, but everyone should consider that as a privilege. I consider a privilege. Not that me spending time with you, but you consider me of enough value that you want to spend your time with me. Wow. But then when that goes both ways, this is wow. And in this, the third thing that I have is, for me, I’m a visual thinker.

08:00
Ali
So I have always visualized friends as these concentric circles that expand outwards. Right? And the reason that this circle model works so well for my brain is because I can visualize how and where different people are put in that perspective, if you’re closer to me, you’re in the closer circles. And if you’re not that close to me and then we go further rings outside. And then you’re some acquaintance, I don’t.

08:24
Ray
Know why I saw Dubai Oprah’s dubai opera seating.

08:27
Ali
Well, think of it the same way. So the further out you get, the circle gets bigger, which means there’s space for more people.

08:33
Ray
Yes.

08:33
Ali
I have, like, a check my LinkedIn. I have, like, a gazillion acquaintances, somebody I met at a conference, somebody okay, this is fine. We’re not buddies, but the closer you get, the space is physically reduced, which tells me there’s not a lot of people I can put in each one of those circles. And for me, and this is the same thing I tell my clients as well and people that I talk to is if you’ve got one, maybe two in that circle, that’s the closest circle to you. That’s enough.

09:04
Ray
Oh, more than enough.

09:05
Ali
No, and not just is it enough, you’re lucky that you even found one or two that you can put there.

09:11
Ray
Yes.

09:12
Ali
And here, this is for me, somebody to get to that circle. Again, it’s two ways, right? You can’t get to that piece of that circle unless I get to that same circle with you, and vice versa. And people shift in and out. But to get there, building on respect, building on trust, then there needs to be this synergy where you have alignment. And a lot of it starts with what you said, alignment in values, alignment in the way we think, respect for the differences that we may have in what we think about. But you will perhaps get to know somebody, and with time, and we’re all human where nobody’s perfect. We all have our eccentricities, but with time, you’ll realize that, wait a second. This person’s alignment and my alignment are okay. And it’s perfect.

09:59
Ray
And it’s okay.

10:01
Ali
This is where the trouble is. You and me understand that it’s okay. Yeah, a lot of people will either change themselves or take it personally or create a conflict or ignore a red flag or see a red flag when it’s not their red flag. And now we’re talking about friction and people pleasing. Oh, don’t get me strong. People pleasing to me is putting people in circles where there’s no space. And now you’re just creating trouble.

10:24
Ray
It’s okay to outgrow friendships. It’s okay to say thank you for all the minutes, but I think now it’s time for us to just have.

10:32
Ali
Our journeys are different.

10:33
Ray
Our journeys are different. But I root for you, but you don’t have to be in my life and vice versa. Yes, that is okay. And I am one of those people who had to learn that in a very hard way, because for me, friendships are for life. Yes, but no, actually they’re not. And it’s okay to love someone. Again, we’re talking about friendships and not have them in your life. So that is completely okay. The second thing that I wanted to I don’t know if you have the answer for that, but let’s see. I’ve always been jealous of men’s friendships. Why? What is the science behind that? Men’s friendships last longer than us women.

11:17
Ali
Well, I can’t comment on the women’s side. And anyone who’s known me, just tell.

11:20
Ray
Me your side of the story. Like men’s side. Because I love your friendships, guys.

11:25
Ali
So I think a lot of you’re loyal.

11:27
Ray
Here’s what I find in men’s friendships.

11:29
Ali
I was going to say, before I answer, tell me what your perspective is.

11:32
Ray
Most of them, and again, most of them, they’re loyal. It doesn’t matter if it was 03:00 A.m. Or 03:00 P.m., if you receive a call from that friend. You’ll be there for him in a minute, if not in a second. You would lie for him. You would be his emergency contact number, not for one year, for 1520 years, and it wouldn’t change. You would go through h*** and above together and still be great friends. Even when you argue, the arguments are so funny that you might either forget what you argued about, or it would just listen, let’s not go there. Let’s not do this, we’re not like that, or whatever it is. And you remind yourselves, and when I say you, I mean most of the men that I see around me, they remind themselves of the bond. Again, as for my observation, women don’t do that.

12:26
Ray
So men’s focus is on the bond and the history.

12:30
Ali
Okay?

12:31
Ray
Woman’s focus is different.

12:33
Ali
Okay?

12:34
Ray
And I love your smile. Tell me.

12:36
Ali
I’m going to ping you on the women’s part in a second. So let me tell you from my experience in life, right, I think guys are reasonably transparent with what’s going on with them. They will say there’s no hidden agenda. They will say what they say. They will say what they feel. They’re very upfront about it. Abroad is not cool. It is cool, you get what you see type of scenario for most guys, right? Not everybody, but most. Now, in that context, you very quickly, because there is honesty and there is no false projection and image creation or whatever. I don’t know. This is who I am. Exactly. What you see is who I am. I’m not playing games, right? So very quickly you’re able to build on that trust and respect. You’re very quickly able to understand that, hey, does this person, the way they think and the opinions that they have about whatever’s going on, does it align with mine?

13:26
Ali
And very quickly, you’re able to kind of get to the point where you realize, oh, I enjoy spending time with this person. And then it’s kind of like tick, tick, tick the boxes. Okay, done. We’re friends, right?

13:38
Ray
It’s so easy.

13:39
Ali
But the nice thing is, and I think this is one side of it, to figure out who the friends are going to be for the guys and then again, understand that those circles still apply. Not everyone is going to immediately jump to be your close friend wherever they go in those concentric rings, right? But once that’s kind of established, that groundwork is kind of established and, you know, yeah, this person vibes the same way, this person thinks the same way we joke about the same stupid s***. Okay? Once that’s done, okay, we’re friends. We’re Bros got it. Now, what happens after that point is this is established and this is done. Now something really stupid has to happen for that to break, right? So up and until it breaks, we’re friends by default. Now, that can mean but even but I haven’t seen you in a couple of years I haven’t talked to you and whatever.

14:26
Ali
Okay, fine. But that was already established. You shook hands on it, fist bumped. We’re friends. Does that mean I have to see you every day? And if I don’t see you every day, our friendship diminishes? No, I don’t think most men think like that.

14:39
Ray
They don’t.

14:39
Ali
And there’s kind of this unsaid bro code. We support each other because that’s considered the default to support each other. That’s the default.

14:48
Ray
Yeah.

14:49
Ali
This is nothing new. I get a call from somebody, hey, man, what are you doing? I’m like nothing. You want to go out for a bite? Sorry, man. I’m stuck with this odd don’t worry about it. This friend did not feel disrespected, or I invited him out. He wanted to go. No, okay. I was busy. He was busy. No big deal. And I’ll call him later, or he’ll call me again, maybe I don’t call him back. He calls me again a couple of days, hey, man, what are you doing tomorrow? You know what? Tomorrow is good. Let’s go for chicken wings or whatever. And the other thing is, I think most guys bond over food, and people who don’t like food I don’t like.

15:19
Ray
Like, 90% of guys.

15:20
Ali
I’ve already said this before. I don’t like guys who don’t like food, but that’s a different topic. So that bonding is there. I’ll get a call, hey, man, what are you doing? Nothing. Seeming at home. This is like twelve midnight. Right? Everything literally.

15:32
Ray
That’s what I’m talking about.

15:33
Ali
Everything. Okay? Yeah. Well, one of my friends now, I don’t know this guy, one of my friends is having a problem with their car and is this something you like, I don’t know, jump start the car? Can you help? I’m like, of course. I’m on my way. Do you want me to pick you up, or are you going to pick me up, or are we going so I’m not even discussing are we doing this? We’re already discussing the logistics of how.

15:54
Ray
We’Re going to you’re a movie person.

15:55
Ali
Fix this person. Yes, I am.

15:56
Ray
I don’t know what the movie I forgot it, of course. But there’s a scene for Ben Affleck asking his friend, you knew it.

16:04
Ali
Oh, I know exactly what you’re talking about, bro. I don’t remember the exact words, but it was something along the lines of help.

16:09
Ray
But you don’t get to ask questions.

16:13
Ali
He’s like, hey, man, I need a shovel and plastic sheet.

16:17
Ray
Yes.

16:17
Ali
And the guy doesn’t ask why. He says, Whose car we’re taking? Whose car are we taking? And when you want me to be there.

16:23
Ray
So that’s the broke code.

16:24
Ali
That’s broke code right there. This is a challenge, by the way.

16:28
Ray
I know.

16:30
Ali
I’m telling you right now. You could find most guys, by the way, have at least one or two guys that they can call and say, I need you. I can’t tell you for what? But I need you to get here, bring a shovel, bring rope, bring duct tape, bring whatever random thing that comes to you. Literally, the only question will be asked is what time and what location?

16:50
Ray
What happened? Tell me, what did you do?

16:54
Ali
There will not be a question.

16:56
Ray
And another thing about Bro code, yes, I do have experience in Brocode is that even when or if the friendship ended, there’s no backstabbing, there’s no shaming, there’s no name calling, and there’s no gossiping.

17:10
Ali
I think that’s not just about guys. I think now I want to make a little bit of a distinction. You can be born a man, but you need to be raised to be a gentleman. And this is very important. And this is reflective of a gentleman.

17:26
Ray
Yes.

17:27
Ali
Not only will he never talk bad about falling out with a guy friend, he will never back talk about even his ex girlfriend. That was just going to say or ex wife. Never. This is because he’s a gentleman. Yes. Right. And this is, again, goes back to what I told you about respect.

17:42
Ray
Yes.

17:42
Ali
You can’t have respect with somebody who doesn’t even understand what respect means.

17:47
Ray
True.

17:48
Ali
Right. So this is all part of the default Bro code. Anybody who is doing something other than this, they’re out of the code. They’re the outliers. You’re dismissed. But this is exactly right. This is exactly right. And I’m not telling you these stories from something I’ve seen. I’ve lived all of these stories my entire life, dude. I’m not a man, and I know my entire life. I can give you examples as three days ago. I’ll give you an example from this morning. We had to go to a meeting, and one of my friends messaged me, have you left? I’m like, I’m about to leave. Okay. And I replied, everything okay. He’s like, yeah, I just wanted to make sure we get there together because I’m really not too keen on going to this thing. But if you’re going to be there, then we’ll go together.

18:34
Ali
I’m like, Bro, I got you. I’m there in three and a half minutes. Why? Because my buddy did not want to go alone to this thing. And honestly, I didn’t want to go alone to this thing either. So we sat, I got there like, maybe 30 seconds after he did, and guess what? He saved me a seat without me asking. He goes, bro. Got you. See him, like thanks, man. Because now we can lean and gossip together while the event is going on. But this is something that’s not. This is something that the guys don’t actively think about. This is just the default.

19:01
Ray
Yeah, true.

19:02
Ali
This is just how we are so grateful.

19:04
Ray
I have a friend, and she’s a.

19:05
Ali
Woman, even to the point and this is going back a while when I remember high school and college and my friends were dating and whatnot, and different things would happen and it would just be part of bro code. The basis is respect, that you’re not going out with somebody’s ex you’re, literally. These things for us do not need to be said. They do not need to be said. And in that one out of a billion, who decides to do guy decides to do something stupid? Everyone’s like, yeah, you have been excommunicated from the male species. Go away, Malfunction.

19:45
Ray
Not from the factory.

19:46
Ali
Yes, you defect it. Go back. Not cool. Not cool. And not even this. I mean, every single thing. And with discussions with you, I’ve realized that the other side of that fence is significantly different. We talk about women. I’ve got WhatsApp groups on my phone. I was telling you about it last time. Also, it’s for offroading and camping. That’s what the group has been created for, right? But I’ll wake up in the morning and there’ll be like two messages. Hey, guys, there’s a really good stock investment opportunity. Look into this. And then somebody’s like, I don’t even know how to do this. Don’t worry. Go to this website. You know what? Call me when you’re free. I’ll explain it to you.

20:22
Ray
We wouldn’t tell.

20:23
Ali
That’s the fault.

20:24
Ray
We wouldn’t tell.

20:25
Ali
So when you have told me all the things you’ve told me, I was.

20:29
Ray
Like, okay, I was blessed to be surrounded with men. Not now, while I work with them. No. Even before, my friends were men guys, they’re all men. So I would like to think that maybe I caught up some things from them. I’m very loyal to the broker. That’s why when I see other girls, it would be for me, like, what am I doing here? Why are they like that? Why do they think like that? To give you an example, they have this need to share everything.

21:04
Ali
I’m not going to comment on this stuff. I’m going to get in trouble.

21:08
Ray
No, you please do. Because why do I have to share everything with you that has nothing to do with trust or love or our friendship or some things I’d like them to stay private. It has nothing to do with, you know why? You’re my best friend. There’s no such thing as best friends anymore. So went out of the topic. But there’s a line between what friends are or what friends should be yes. And what they are these days. That’s why if you go to Facebook, okay, and just go and explore those groups, you would be amazed of how many women and this is really serious. They would share anonymously because they don’t want to be judged. I feel lonely. I can’t make friends. This is what I like to do. Anyone would like to hang out, plenty of messages and then assuming she’s the same person, like, a lot of you didn’t really follow up.

22:15
Ali
The interest, but no follow up.

22:16
Ray
And then I would think to myself, if that was a man asking that question by now, they would have been celebrating their weddings.

22:23
Ali
Oh, no. If it was guys, it’d be like, hey, man, I’m on my way. Would you mind if I bring another friend?

22:27
Ray
They would have met their moms. They loved her. You know what I mean? What is it? I used to think it was envy, jealousy, insecurities. We were taught wrong. We were raised wrong. But now, these days, I find no excuse for a woman not to level up, not to break that limiting belief, not to wish well for another woman. Remember what I said to you on International Women’s Day? I don’t like that day because of that. Because I see a lot of women talking s*** behind a woman’s back, not wishing her well on her business, not supporting her business. She would go to another business and not support her friends. Referrals come from strangers. They don’t come from friends.

23:16
Ali
See, this?

23:16
Ray
I never why?

23:17
Ali
I never understood this.

23:18
Ray
Where is that culture coming from?

23:20
Ali
I do so much startup advisory and I never understood this. And I still don’t understand this.

23:24
Ray
We had that conversation.

23:26
Ali
I know. And I’m still telling you. I know you’re telling me. I believe you. And not only that, I see it myself.

23:31
Ray
Also, I would feel safe to ask for help from a man rather than a woman, except for my best friend. But you know what I mean? It’s sad.

23:40
Ali
So I think this is circling back to our core discussion about friendships. And this is a very nice illustration that tells us that not all friends are the same. We talked about a very easy to see gender difference between the styles of friendships. But first of all, not all friends are the same. And this is important to understand. But I want to kind of get into another thing about toxic friends. Because what I see so many toxic friendships and my brain is like, Are you blind? Can you not see?

24:13
Ray
What do we have time?

24:15
Ali
Like, what is going on here? Oh, yes, talk to me.

24:21
Ray
Yes. No, you tell me first. Because I could go on and on.

24:27
Ali
Okay. From my experience and what I’ve seen is you seldom get to a point, at least for the guys. And I know this is interesting, how this discussion has become male, female, but you seldom get to a point in guy friendships where you find toxic friendships seldom because your alignment didn’t happen. Your alignment even didn’t happen.

24:50
Ray
Let me give you a scenario. Let me give you a scenario. Let’s say you and your friend, one of you drinks more often than the other, and then he decides to quit. Would that influence the friendship?

25:04
Ali
Most cases, no. Because you respect the difference. So I’m Muslim. I don’t drink. I have friends who do. So if we’re going out, they will ask me, is it okay if I order a drink? I’m like yeah, okay, I don’t mind. But never ever in my entire life have they offered one to me because they already know that I don’t drink, don’t have an issue. That’s it. It’s that simple. Tomorrow, this person decides to stop drinking. Okay? Another friend who doesn’t drink decides to start drinking, okay? I don’t have an issue with it, right? But at the same time, because this is maybe not as controversial of an issue, but if I see one of my guy friends doing something stupid, mistreating his girlfriend or whatever example you can think of, I be like, hey, bro, we need to have a that’s the.

25:48
Ray
Accountability I’m talking about.

25:50
Ali
We need to have a conversation. Sit your a** down. Yes, this. Now, once that explanation has been done by me or another friend or whatever it is, if this person continues that incorrect behavior, we will cut off that friendship, and it will happen very organically, like, hey, bro, you’re not willing to change on this. We’re not willing to accept that behavior in our group. I have so many of my friends. The guys joke, right? But at any point, somebody cracks a joke that I find offensive or disrespectful to women, I’m like, Guys, all joking aside, that piece wasn’t cool. Can we tone it back a little? Sorry, bro. Sorry. Didn’t mean to offend. I’m like no, I didn’t get offended. I’m just saying let’s not cross that line. No problem, bro. Got you.

26:34
Ray
Nice.

26:35
Ali
So, again, this type of accountability is very functional.

26:38
Ray
Happened to a woman. We would have stopped talking and removed one another from social media. That’s what I’m talking about.

26:45
Ali
Like I said, I don’t understand that side.

26:47
Ray
But going back to what toxic friends do or behave or whatever, a toxic friend would not respect your boundaries.

26:55
Ali
Agreed.

26:55
Ray
A toxic friend would impose their lifestyles on you. When you have different lifestyles. And when I say that, it’s not just, oh, come on. No. It’s a continuous effort to make you break a habit or not start a new one. A toxic friend is someone who would project their insecurities on you.

27:15
Ali
I hear you on that. Why aren’t we getting rid of these toxic friends?

27:20
Ray
I know I did already. No toxic friends.

27:24
Ali
Let me read.

27:24
Ray
But I’ll tell you why people are so scared. Because people are so scared to being alone. People are so scared to not being welcomed in someone’s circle or activities. They don’t even want to be faced with the truth of, am I the wrong one? And when I say, am I the wrong one? Which means, do I need to do some inner work? Most people don’t want to do the inner work, because if I do the inner work, the amount of friends I’m going to lose, it’s reframing that story you’re telling yourself. You’re not losing s***. You’re going to make new friends. Not in the quantity, but in the quality of friends. Toxic. Friends. And toxic is a very overused word, and it’s so heavy. So let’s say healthy, unhealthy, an unhealthy friend. For example, if I wake up one day and come to you and say, ali, I decided to run a marathon, an unhealthy friend would make fun of this and would go above and beyond to not let that happen.

28:25
Ray
Because if Rahaf went on a marathon, I’m just using myself as an example, then who am I going for drinks with?

28:32
Ali
Or oh, my God, Rahaf is going on a marathon and I’m not. Everyone’s going to see that.

28:36
Ray
She’s amazing. Exactly.

28:39
Ali
See, this hold you down culture is just so f***** up, man.

28:43
Ray
Did I tell you about the friend who stopped being my friend because she got into a relationship?

28:48
Ali
Wow, that’s a thing.

28:49
Ray
That’s a thing. And I was like, Wait, what? We’re doing this now? What?

28:54
Ali
I feel like such an ignorant my.

28:56
Ray
Singleness might jinx her relationship, or it might actually make me feel jealous. She don’t need that kind of energy in her life. Wow. And I was like, well, if you were a man, this would have never happened.

29:07
Ali
No.

29:09
Ray
I don’t know what it is.

29:11
Ali
We just make fun of the guy for a little while and say, you’re not lost.

29:14
Ray
Yeah, please stop doing that.

29:17
Ali
This is just done out of just to bug the guy.

29:19
Ray
It’s not an issue, but you know what I mean.

29:20
Ali
Yeah, I hear you.

29:21
Ray
I just would love to see more people considering looking inward and see how can I be a better friend?

29:31
Ali
Yes, I agree. I think that’s very important. But one of the things I wanted to talk about just at the tail end of this podcast. So for many years, I would find myself in that circle example that I gave you, moving people further away and without actively thinking, moving them, control delete, direct delete, just throw them off the edge of the planet type of scenario. But I found me moving a lot of people away without actively thinking why. It was in my mind. It’s like, no, I just don’t like the way this person is. And I didn’t think why? And it was only like a handful of years ago, or actually more than a handful of years now. I was watching Bernay Brown on an episode of Oprah where she talked about the six people who don’t deserve to hear your story. And while watching that, literally in my head, I’m like, oh, yeah, I got rid of this person for that reason.

30:25
Ali
And I’ll read them to you. The first one is the one who feels shame for you. You don’t want to share with somebody who feels shameful for you. Not empathy.

30:35
Ray
I heard that.

30:37
Ali
The one who responds with sympathy rather than empathy. This is the second one. The third one, the one who is disappointed in your imperfections. The fourth one, the one who is uncomfortable with your vulnerability. Fifth one the one who refuses to acknowledge your state of emotional feeling. And the last one, the one who confuses your connections to opportunities to talk about themselves. I know, right? For those of you can just Google the six people who don’t deserve to hear your shame story. Just google it. Bernay Brown the Oprah video clip will pop out. It’s like, maybe 1015 minutes, but the last one, yes. But what I would love everyone go pick up her book, The Gifts of Imperfection. Bernay Brown and I make it a point to, you know, literally give a copy of this book to a lot of my friends. Like okay, you know what?

31:36
Ali
I didn’t get one, because you already know these things. And like I said, I knew this. I just didn’t have it listed.

31:44
Ray
You don’t know how to name them or label them like that.

31:46
Ali
So literally, while I was watching, I was ticking them off in my head. I’m like, oh, yeah. This is exactly why I have gotten rid of so many people from so.

31:54
Ray
Speaking of this, could we stop as friends, saying, I know how you feel when you actually don’t?

32:00
Ali
This is one of those, how are you doing today?

32:02
Ray
I’m doing good.

32:03
Ali
Doing good. The default answer that’s supposed to I’m okay because I want to go jump on that 6th point that got you a little fired up. Yes. The people who confuse connection with the opportunity to talk about themselves.

32:16
Ray
Yes. And it fired me up because, God, when my dad died, all right, in 2010, the amount of people who came to me and said, when my dad died, this and that, when my dad died, this and that, and I was like, this is not the way you do this. If you think in your head that by doing this, you’re making me relate to you or vice versa, you’re wrong, because now I hate you back then. This is about me. This is not about you. Or when women break up. Well, in my breakup, yeah. It’s not about you. It’s about me. There’s a line. There’s a line and there’s a skill on how to do this in a way that makes the person feel heard and not just dismissed. And it’s common. Not just friendships, but you know where it’s also common? Parents.

33:14
Ali
Oh, yes.

33:15
Ray
When I was your age, I used to do this. What are you talking about? Stop doing this. Because remember our conversation, why people don’t speak up? This is one of the reasons. Because I don’t want s*** like that. I don’t want people to come to me and say, well, when I lost my dad, this is exactly how I got over it. Or Why are you grieving that long? It doesn’t need to take you that much, Hala. Shake it up.

33:38
Ali
No, this is exactly what he talks about.

33:41
Ray
Feelings. Not just grieve. But in my case, that was the thing that came to my mind like yes. Or When I fractured my elbow, people went like, when I did. Habibi. It’s a different situation. My pain tolerance is different.

33:57
Ali
It’s different. Yeah, but I didn’t share the story to hear your story. I shared the story because it’s my story.

34:03
Ray
There are two ways to do it. Either ask her permission would it make you feel better if I share how I went through that same or almost the same, a similar experience? And then when you take the permission, share that story. Maybe I need a distraction at that point. Or maybe I need to hear that from a different perspective.

34:20
Ali
If not yes, but Rahav on that. Also, a very particular nuance that’s going to be very critical is this person is not sharing the story to help you. They’re sharing the story to one up your story. What would be a nice response?

34:35
Ray
That is the comparison. Sharing.

34:37
Ali
This is the comparison. They’re one upping the story. You broke your elbow. I broke my collarbone ten years ago in a motorbike accident. So you breaking your elbow. I’m not going to jump in one of my collarbone story. I’ll hear your story out and then be like, you know, I broke my bone a while ago. Can I share with you what helps?

34:54
Ray
Yes.

34:55
Ali
And now I’m sharing the post experience of how I recovered. Or what are some good tips on it.

35:02
Ray
But that’s a good point. The comparison part is that why are you sad about this? People have it worse.

35:09
Ali
Yeah. No.

35:10
Ray
Could we stop saying that? Because someone else’s situation does not mean my situation is not important enough or is not painful enough for me. It’s not that I don’t care about people’s situations, but this is mine now. And what I feel at this moment is legit and valid. So you don’t get to come and tell me why are you feeling that way? It’s none of your business. I do.

35:36
Ali
But this is why I love what Bernay Brown said. These people aren’t the people you’re supposed to share with.

35:42
Ray
Oh, absolutely. But you have to learn that through experiences.

35:46
Ali
Now, if I take that back to our discussion about friendship, this is yet another amazing way to identify people and filter, not be in your closer circle. Push them out, filter them, toss them over the edge, whatever it is that you do. Because at the end of the day, your physical and mental health are the single most important thing. And if you’re not going to look after this, you’re going to allow toxic people to influence you. We have a huge issue just to kind of wrap up and bring things full circle. There are so many sayings about this, but if you show me your five closest friends, I’ll show you who you are and the reason for this.

36:23
Ray
In my case, I have three.

36:26
Ali
Any numbers go with me. Right, but why? Because these people create a circle of influence. And that circle of influence, whether you admit it or not, will have an influence.

36:37
Ray
True.

36:37
Ali
This is human nature. We know this.

36:39
Ray
And sometimes it’s okay to change those friends because every journey, every stage of your life needs different people.

36:47
Ali
So that’s the whole point that I told you earlier about. For me, I see it as a journey. And the minutes and throughout different points in my life, I’ve had different people who have been close friends to me, and we have maybe drifted apart because our journeys didn’t overlap anymore. And that’s okay.

37:03
Ray
Yes.

37:04
Ali
And that’s okay. But just to kind of toss in the bro code bit, any one of those friends, if I pick up the phone and call now, they’ll step up because bro code.

37:16
Ray
You had to do that, didn’t you?

37:18
Ali
Had to put that in.

37:19
Ray
Well, I’m one of the bros, though.

37:23
Ali
Well, I guess you are. There you go. You’re one of the bros now. You’re welcome on our side. I think the important thing to think about is to be self aware, to understand who you are, understand what your journey is in life, and then think about the people that you have around you, the friends that you have. Why do you consider them friends? What about them is making you make them closer or further away? I think this needs to be an active process and not a passive process.

37:51
Ray
And that’s normalized. Once my friend Monica, she came to, she said, what do you like about me? I love that question. She heard it somewhere, and she came like, what do you like about me? And I loved it. And I was like, wow. We should normalize. Asking each other. That normalize. Having these kind of questions between friends. How can I be a better friend for you?

38:13
Ali
Ask me that question.

38:15
Ray
What do you like about me?

38:17
Ali
What I like about you is how I feel when we’re together, because I feel at peace. And that, to me, is everything.

38:27
Ray
Well, thank you for sharing.

38:28
Ali
You are most welcome. And with that tearful ending yeah. Thank you, everybody, for listening. Make sure you catch the rest of our podcast. Bye.