S03E07 – Parenthood – Nokhez

00:05
Ali
Hey, guys, welcome back. Ali here on another podcast, and we got some interesting discussions that’s going to be happening today. And I find it very interesting because it’s one of the few things that I think that you really need to learn about, be knowledgeable, certified, approved. And interestingly enough, none of those things really exist. People don’t really need to be qualified or certified to bring a child into this world. So parenthood to me, is very interesting. Done right, it can be amazing. Done wrong, you might have just f***** up a human. My bad. With me in our studio today is Nokez, who’s been on many podcasts with me. Happy to have here again. And I think Nohez, do introduce yourself just a little bit for new listeners.

01:03
Nokhez
All right. Hi, guys. My name is Nokhez Usama. I’m a behavioral therapist here in Dubai, also a neuropsychologist by Formal education.

01:13
Ali
She went to school.

01:14
Nokhez
Yeah, I went to school for this. I’m sorry. I want to keep this light and conversational. So I’m glad that I stumbled upon my words because it make it seem a little bit more natural. But I’ve been on the podcast a few times, and largely I’ve spoken a lot about neuroscience, neuropsychology, we’ve touched bases on adolescence to adulthood, the whole sort of transition, what you experience and all that. So please go check that out. It’s a really interesting podcast. We have some interesting guests on there as well, so give it a listen. And today we bring out another part of adulthood, to be honest, which is parenthood, which, as you said, Ellie, it’s not something that you get certification for or anything. We are just we have babies, and there’s like so much that we need to learn very quickly. And I feel like it is one of those things where you’re learning a lot on the job.

02:08
Nokhez
And I want touch upon some of the things that can happen in parenthood, the stresses, the difficulties, what is important, what is maybe not important, how to manage a few things with parenthood. And especially given the fact that as a behavioral therapist, I am exposed to a lot of this. I can see it in parents. I have seen it in discussions with my friends who are fresh parents as well, my own parents with my friends. And I feel like I’ve got a.

02:35
Ali
Good got a good understanding of what’s what exactly.

02:38
Nokhez
And then my formal education.

02:40
Ali
Formal education. The school thing. I like it.

02:43
Nokhez
Former. I keep saying former.

02:44
Ali
Former. I like that. The former formal education.

02:50
Nokhez
Exactly, guys.

02:51
Ali
So let’s get started. I mean, when we talk about being a parent, the word stress seems to be, like, glued to it. Tell me a little bit more about parenting and stress.

03:01
Nokhez
So first I will talk a little bit about stress, just sort of what stress is. And then I’m going to tangent into parenthood and adulthood and the whole gist of that. So when we talk about stress, we’re saying anything that has caused you emotional, mental, cognitive and physical demand. And not just demand in the sense of like you are working on it, but something that is causing you to sort of stressing you out. I don’t know how else to put it, but it demands a lot out of you. And after a certain period of time, a little bit of that exposure to stress can become chronic. Especially when you haven’t had time to regulate yourself, relax, take a minute from it, rest, and these things turn into just like, oh, I’m working hard to oh, I can’t do this no more, I need a break.

03:50
Nokhez
And it’s reaching that point is where in terms of experience, we say it’s like a stressful experience physiologically it can go on, but just keep it to the experience. And then obviously with parenting, it’s not just you’re looking after yourself or your spouse or your partner, but you’re working. And then you have this tiny little human who is entirely dependent on you for love, for care, for protection, security, finances. This entire human is looking up to you as a role model, as a parent, as their first friend. And the list is exhaustive. And that sort of demand and the responsibility that comes with parenthood can be stressful on top of everything else that you’re experiencing. And that’s where it’s just like it is. Not that parenthood in itself is that stressful. It is that if you’re unable to manage things in your own personal life and if parenting is stressful and that can be the case if those two are joint, it can be a very exhilarating and a very exhaustive experience.

04:55
Ali
I hear you on that and I echo that and I agree. I think part of the problem I think that’s the wrong way to phrase it. I think the structural issue of the situation is such that you can’t return this tiny human and take a break.

05:12
Nokhez
But tiny humans are so sweet.

05:14
Ali
Well, you change enough poopy diapers and maybe change your mind on that one.

05:18
Nokhez
Gets not chopped on irregular. I still find them very cute.

05:25
Ali
Okay, cute. Perhaps maybe less cute. What I’m getting to is I think there’s a distinct difference between new parents of babies, and then as the children get older, I think the dynamic also changes and the responsibilities also change. And then I think when you have multiple kids, and especially if they’re spread out different age groups, that even further complicates the matter. I guess what I want to hear from you is talk to me a little bit about the interpersonal relationship that a child has with their parent and perhaps if you could roughly break it down into stages or a spectrum.

06:05
Nokhez
So I think it’s a given parent kids are very dependent on their parents in the sense of the social, psychological, cognitive and emotional and the reason that it’s all these different segments is that in terms of emotional there’s a lot of dependency because your parents can model out what love and warmth and care feels like. Any inconsistencies there within parenting causes this sort of inconsistencies in the child’s sort of relationship or how they feel about their relationship with their parents. You have this common thing about this person has an insecure attachment style and that usually comes from inconsistency within parenting styles. When it comes to the cognitive part, if you are not as present as a parent you’re not able to also play as much or be as aware of your child’s development or be as present as a parent. Now imagine if you’re constantly thinking about work, work, but you see your child simultaneously.

07:07
Nokhez
They’re playing but they’re constantly asking for your attention and you’re not able to be there. You’re sort of taking away that opportunity for them to just explore and play with you and develop that communicative bond and that social communication dynamic and the list goes on. And especially at younger ages, you need these interactions to help with development, especially social and psychological development. When you have interpersonal relationships, it’s also the warmth that you show to your child is what they show to. That is exactly what they almost reflect out. Kids are very reflective in a sense. Whatever is going on in their environment, they show it. It’s one of those things they’re very transparent. So if they’re not happy, if things are not going well, you can tell. And if those emotions are not being attended to because you’re too busy there’s also that problem that starts because the child starts feeling alone and they have to start coping or managing their emotions themselves.

08:05
Nokhez
And depending on the age it can be very maladaptive and result into different coping mechanisms. And this is where some psychogenic theories.

08:16
Ali
Sorry to cut you off there. I’m just trying to simplify so I understand better. Correct me if I’m wrong, but we’re talking about babies and then they’re getting bigger and toddlers and then walking and then school. So if we look at it from the perspective of circle of influence, the primary circle of influence for a child is their parent. And that’s what you’re telling me. That’s where they learn to do everything. They learn their social skills, how to interact. Personality developments are also linked to this.

08:44
Nokhez
Absolutely.

08:47
Ali
There’s a study that were talking about earlier. I want to get into that in a second but before that, how important and I know this is a hot topic with a lot of parents and there’s a lot of guilt associated with it. We’ll jump back to the guilt part later in the conversation today. How important is time?

09:03
Nokhez
It’s everything. It’s all you can give to a child. They want time. Time in terms of and that’s a quality time. Not just you being on your phone and the kids playing on the floor, but really giving them the quality time of actually setting up a play environment for them and being interactive and having conversations with them like a whole adult. Don’t do the whole oh, Goo Gaga thing with them. It’s not very healthy for their development. And it’s also not how speech is developed. And I’m saying this as a behavioral therapist and neuropsychologist, don’t do Goo Gaga with them. Have a very dynamic play with them, do that exploration with them. There’s a lot of nurseries here in Dubai, especially, that are half set up an environment where the kid just thoroughly explores because that’s how they build associations. And if you don’t do that at home as a parent, they’re not building that association.

09:53
Nokhez
And if you’re not spending time with them, quality parent to child time and I’m not saying just sit there and do nothing. Talk to them like they’re like a mini adult. It’s your tiny human. And you have to invest in them. And the one way you can invest is through time and effort.

10:12
Ali
Would you say that’s the most important?

10:17
Nokhez
Yes, I think that’s one of the most important factors. Because if you’re able to spend time with them and I’ll get to this later, but also spend time with yourself, you’re able to actually create a very healthy environment. If you’re too stressed as a parent and you can’t find that time for them, they are not able to learn the cognitive skills, the psychosocial skills, the emotion regulation skills, and these things, if they’re not going to come out, they might not come out when they’re young, but they will come out at some point. They will have issues with communications or emotional regulation seems to very it seems to be a very big thing. And within cognition, it’s a bit of like it’s a gray area, really depends on also other environmental factors. But we have seen that emotion regulation is like the biggest link with parental availability and child development.

11:04
Ali
So we understand that it’s a critical importance that the time is being spent because you imprint on the tiny human and then they learn what they need to learn about how to live in the planet that we’re on from this perspective. I get that sounds fair, sounds very logical. Also, were talking before we started this podcast, you were talking about talking to me about a study when were talking about children who have parents with untreated mental health issues and the impact can you expand on that?

11:35
Nokhez
Untreated mental health issues? Yeah, I’m trying to think of which study because there’s several I think I.

11:42
Ali
Have it in my notes. Was it from the Journal of American Academy and Child and Adolescent Psychiatry?

11:49
Nokhez
Very long term, but the Journal of American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry. Wow. They did a very interesting study where they looked at parents with mental health issues and how that had an effect on the child. Now this comes in two different stages. This can be prenatal. So this is very important for the mothers. And there’s also postnatal and then there’s also the familial and environments that you set up. So prenatal stress, and this is also something I did my research in, is if there is a lot of stress in the prenatal period, the stress can dysregulate the child’s mechanism of stress regulation as well. So if you as a mother, we all know through the umbilical cord you’re able to give the nutrients and the oxygen and whatnot you can do the same with the stress, from what I remember, is that it dysregulates their system.

12:45
Nokhez
So you are already sort of programming the child’s stress regulatory system and this can obviously lead to long term issues and damages. Not damages, but you will have some problems with the regulation of the system. That’s also why most gynecologists will recommend the pregnant mothers like hey, take it easy, don’t stress yourself out. You don’t want to stress the baby. And this is why. It’s because if you’re too stressed out as a mother, you kind of give the stress to the kid.

13:25
Ali
I always thought it was you don’t want to stress the baby in terms of the pregnancy situation. I didn’t realize it was there’s.

13:31
Nokhez
That too.

13:32
Ali
No, I mean, I didn’t realize the added thing of the you’re going to transfer the stress.

13:36
Nokhez
Yeah, you can actually program them. It’s a programming kind of thing. And it’s the same thing where they talk about epigenetics, epigenetic genetics is any change of the gene expression without altering the underlying gene DNA expression. So the gene expression is changed over time without altering the underlying DNA sequence. And what this ends up doing is there are increased abnormalities and dysregulations and the mechanism that we can see and.

14:13
Ali
How does it show up in adolescent life for this child?

14:18
Nokhez
It can be various different things. I know that research has shown that this could indicate for poor regulation of stress already. It is that these kids can already be more sensitive to having anxiety, depression. So their sensitivity to these things as a child increases. So that’s also one of the reasons doctors and gynes and midwives do tell the pregnant women take it easy, don’t do anything that’s too stressful and take regular breaks. And after a certain point they also tell you perhaps don’t go to work just to be able to take care of yourself. And especially for women, it’s a very big thing. It’s a very big change that they’re about to experience. And same for the fathers, there’s a huge change that they will experience towards the 9th month. But for the moms, it’s this drastic and continuous changes they’re experiencing with our body, which is already quite a bit to juggle.

15:12
Ali
Wow, I did not know all that. Thank you for sharing that’s very interesting thought. Came to my head in the perspective of these things. We’ve talked in the past, some of my other podcast guests, we’ve had discussions about postpartum depression and these sort of things. I don’t know, I think it might be naive on my part but I always in my mind thought, okay, this mother who just had a baby is going through a life altering experience physically, biologically and now she’s got a child to take care of and now she’s going through this depression because of all of these things. I never thought what would be impact on child of a mother who’s going through this.

15:55
Nokhez
There’s almost two phase. There’s a prenatal obviously, where we’ve discussed that this high amount of stress may as a result in also behavioral issues. We see attention deficits stress, regulatory issues, we see emotional difficulties that may arise later on as a kid grows up. But when we’re talking about postpartum depression it’s along the lines of if a mom is so postpartum is difficult and I don’t even have the right kind of vocabulary to be honest to you, even explain how it feels like because I don’t think I would do justice to how the mothers may feel. But all I can imagine is that complete detachment or the complete sadness or the gloominess that you feel whilst you have this beautiful life in your hand. But simultaneously you feel something completely different and that can result into detachments within the kind of attention you pay to the child, how emotionally available you are for the child, how attentive you are to their cries, to their poopy sessions, to their nap time.

16:58
Nokhez
Are you able to take care of yourself? How are you regulating because besides the baby, putting the baby aside, you as a mother, you as an individual become very susceptible to negative circumstances. You feel more and as you mentioned, physically, emotionally, biologically, hormonally on every level. A woman goes through a lot during childbirth and then she’s now experiencing this negativity around the birth. It can cause a lot of I don’t want to say damage, because that has a negative connotation, but it does have an impact on the child relationship and hence why a lot of pregnant women are also told if you start feeling the birth blues. If there’s a certain amount of birth blues, which is kind of like expected, it comes with the change of hormones and emotions and all that. But if it continues come back, we need to help you. We need to assess you and hence why they have support groups as well now and support groups tend to just kind of make you feel a little alive.

18:01
Nokhez
But it’s also seeking professional help will help you also sort of understand what is best for you. We talk about available parents in general, but then imagine as a mom you’re mentally you’re not available because you feel something else. So it’s a I think it’s one of those. It’s one of those things which is very heavy, very difficult, not just on the child of the family, but especially on the mother.

18:31
Ali
I think it’s very important how you’ve illustrated the connection I think it’s very important how you’ve illustrated the connection that there is between the parent and the child and more so with the mother and the child. Do you feel that there’s a different weight to the connection that a child has with their mother versus to their father? I mean, now I’m saying a little bit slightly older age.

19:00
Nokhez
I think the kind of roles that both parents play are equally important. As a mom, you’ve given birth and you’re the child. There’s almost like that. Mothers have that click. And this is what I know from my mom and from other aunties and some of my friends who’ve just recently had a kid is that there’s a certain click and a motherly instinct that is there. And I’m not saying that this is not present for the fathers. This is there as well, but this is there in different forms. You want to provide for the family. A lot of my male friends who’ve had kids, they’re like, I want like, I’ll take a bullet for the kid, I’ll do this and that, and it’s the same thing for the mother, but they want to nurture and help, and it’s a different kind of love. So it is not that one is more important than the other.

19:46
Nokhez
Both are extremely important and they have to be balanced. I’ve seen in a lot of cases where the mothers are giving significantly more than the fathers have. And I hate saying this, but paying the bills and bringing money and making sure that the family has a roof over the head is not a form of providing for the kid. By providing for the kid, I mean, like, actually be there, make time for.

20:09
Ali
The kid, spending time.

20:10
Nokhez
And if it’s not about spending time and you can’t have time, then there are other ways that you can still facilitate it is by being there for the wife, being there for your partner that is indirectly also being there for the kid.

20:21
Ali
I like that.

20:22
Nokhez
But still making time. I’m not saying, okay, now focus on the wife, leave the kid there’s. No the point. Still make time for the kid, but then also support your wife if you aren’t able to be there as much as she is and if you know that she’s taking the heavier load. It angers me as a female, as a woman, as someone who I believe in, that both parents play a critical role in the development. I know the warmth of a mom is important, but I also know the warmth of a dad is very important. And they help in emotional regulation on both ends. So to say that one is more important to the other, no, they’re both equally they’re basic necessities for a kid.

21:06
Ali
All right. I like it. It makes sense. It seems fair. There needs to be balance and there needs to be equity in how that works. And everybody kind of, I guess, contributes in their way. But I think the key takeaway that I’m hearing is time. Active present quality, active time with a child for both parents is, I think, very important. Let’s switch over to talking about the parents themselves. We threw the word balance in there. We threw the word taking care of yourself. Tell me more about how parents can actively participate or actively engage in self care.

21:47
Nokhez
I think a lot of parents struggle with this. The idea of self care almost doesn’t exist in the narrative of most parents because it’s like, when do I find time for myself when I have a teeny tiny human who constantly needs me? Twenty four, seven, all right. And I’m not saying go on a fancy schmancy vacation or leave your baby behind or do anything like that, but just take regular little breaks. It could be as simple as a tea. Grab your tea, wake up a little bit early. Like, I even recently saw this with some friends. They wake up a little bit earlier than the kid does, and they just spend time with each other because they don’t have that contact time. Like my friend and our partner, they don’t have that contact time otherwise, so they make time. So take that time. Make time for yourself.

22:33
Nokhez
Otherwise you’re not going to find time because that little human will eat up every second of the day if it could.

22:40
Ali
Especially with so many of my friends right now. They’re listening and they’re just laughing at you right now because they’ll be like, Woman, what you talking about? I’m lucky if I have 20 minutes for a shower every five days.

22:52
Nokhez
I mean, in my dad’s case, my dad always says that when I was born, the first three months of his job after I was born, he was late every single morning because Madam here didn’t feel like sleeping and kept at the parents all night. I knew that also they were able to balance that by just making time for themselves or being like, okay, I’m late. It is what it is. And it’s about also being realistic with yourselves. You can’t do X-Y-Z things. And this is especially for their moms who are doing the best and the most that they can, is like, just understand that you are doing what you can. You’re doing the most. And if you need to seek help, it’s good to seek help. I like that it is better to ask for help than to be like, oh, I don’t know what to do.

23:35
Nokhez
And then to constantly be in that phase of constant, like, I don’t know what to do. The guilt, the shame that comes especially with parenthood. And I know that culturally speaking, mothers have a lot more and when I say culturally, I mean mostly in the Middle Eastern area, the South Asian communities, that there’s a little bit more weight on the mom to perform as a mother than there is for the father.

23:59
Ali
Oh, 100%. I see that drama all the time. I’ve knocked the stupid out of some of my friends and told them to step up. I hear you on that. I want to talk about boundaries. I think this is a very important word that we don’t use in the right way. Talk to me about the importance of setting up boundaries and why would I need to do this as a parent?

24:20
Nokhez
So there are two boundaries. There’s the work boundary that you have to set, and there is also the boundary of where can you draw the line within your personal life, and where do you need to draw the line of, like, okay, am I overdoing it? Am I being over anxious? Am I being this and that and having that? Sort of if you’re able to take breaks, that is, then you can also have these discussions with yourself, and you’re able to really understand, am I overthinking this, or am I, okay, something is really up. And also personal boundaries because you’re able to understand where you maybe need a break. It is very important, and I say this mainly for the moms, all right? We’re strong, we’re resilient. You guys have literally brought in a whole tiny human into the world, and there’s a lot of pressure that goes on.

25:01
Nokhez
And same with the dads. I imagine that there’s a lot of pressure sometimes, especially in the cases of where there’s complicated pregnancies or atypical development or something. There’s a lot of pressure on both. Now, the parents and this is where the boundaries become very important. I’ll come to the atypical stuff in a bit, but especially their work boundaries. Tell your management you’ve had a baby. Do not hide it. Tell and talk to them about it. And then try to regulate your schedule a little bit, especially the first three months. I know that in most places around the world, there are, like, nice paternal and maternal leaves. So take full use and advantage of this. And also, if you can just give yourself some slack, you are not going to be an available parent in those few days anyway. All right? I’m sorry. Not available parent, but you’re not going to be available for yourself anyway, so might as well not allow things to impact your work performance in that way, because you don’t want it to be a double edged sword.

25:58
Nokhez
You don’t want to go to work tired, exhausted. Your work is not doing well and everything. And the kid baby’s upset, mom is upset, baba’s upset. Everyone’s upset. It’s a lose situation. So instead, take the break. Draw those boundaries. Be like, hey, guys, for the next few months, I’m dealing with a newborn baby, or I’m dealing with a toddler. Just be patient with me. And believe me, most people will be patient, especially they understand that’s a whole new human. There are things that are completely out of control. And when it comes to personal boundaries, it’s also being able to be like, no, I need having that dialogue with your partner and being like, no, I need you to be more involved, or I need help with this. And this sometimes could be facilitated with a couple’s counselor, because sometimes it is a very difficult conversation to have to be like, I need you to do more, but also just being like, hey, today I’m going to need to take 10 minutes off for myself.

26:47
Nokhez
Here you go, the baby, I need 10 minutes. Having that kind of boundary, that dialogue is important. And those personal boundaries help define where you are within just getting time for yourself. If you don’t have boundaries and you’re constantly burning an empty tank, you’re not getting anywhere. Quite literally, you’re not getting anywhere with this.

27:08
Ali
I hear that very rightfully said, and I agree with you on that. In my current family network, the oldest child is 17 and the youngest is some number of months old. And we’ve got a whole spectrum in between, and we’ve got multiple different parents and different parenting styles that I’ve seen. It’s very interesting to observe, right, what sort of struggles and difficulties they’re facing. And I’d be like, Why is this they might I’m like, Why is this even a problem? Just what’s a big deal. Like you said, you can hand off the kid to somebody for 10 minutes. But I think saying something like that and doing that is very hard. And I think a lot of it has to do with guilt that, no, I’m the parent. I’m supposed to be the 100% caretaker, provider, watch over my child. I’ve seen many moms try not to sleep while their baby is sleeping.

28:06
Ali
I’m like, what are you doing? This is golden time. Sleep. No, what if the baby wakes up? I’m like, Trust me, baby has a little siren that’s going to wake you up. Go sleep. There’s this guilt associated with not being this superhuman parent, and I think that obviously creates a lot of problems as the individual. And then we just talked about balance, not just with work, but within the nuclear family, so to speak, in your partner. Also, a lot of this, I think at the end of the day, if we boil it down, it just comes to smart communication.

28:38
Nokhez
But the thing is, I also know that with a kid, smart communication goes out the window.

28:44
Ali
Well, you gave the example.

28:45
Nokhez
There it goes.

28:46
Ali
Hold the kid 10 minutes. I need to go take a shower. It’s not, hey, I need to take a shower. I probably stink. I haven’t showered in three days. Can you hold the kid for 10 minutes? I really appreciate it, too. I’ve been dealing with. This crying monster. You haven’t done s*** all last three days. And then all of a sudden it’s, oh, my goodness, are we passing the time bomb? Am I hated that bad. And now I’m, oh, am I really a bad father? Oh, my God. Are you calling me a bad father? I’m not a bad father. I hate you for calling me now. We’ve just created this hostile environment where it was hold the kid for 10 minutes.

29:25
Nokhez
I feel like this dives into a deeper discussion of, like, are you ready to be parents? And I feel like a lot of people need to think twice before they bring a whole teeny, tiny human.

29:39
Ali
The answer that I have to that question is very simple. I don’t think anybody’s ready to be a parent. I think a lot of people want to be parents. I think a lot of people think they’re ready to be a parent. But as soon as a human is put in your life, that’s what your human life is put in your hands. You don’t know what the h*** you’re doing. And at that point onwards, I think it’s just a matter of priorities. Keep the child alive, keep the child.

30:06
Nokhez
Fed in those priorities. It becomes so stressful.

30:11
Ali
Exactly.

30:12
Nokhez
And that’s where I want to bring emphasis to the boundaries, the self care, the management, in terms of talking to people, seeking support. The reason these things are important is because you don’t want the effect to start snowballing. You don’t want that tiny bit of stress to cause you to be a distant parent to you, to be not available for your partner, for you to have, like, interpersonal relationship issues. You’re fighting with this person, with that person, the baby’s crying, you’re not attending to it. It snowballs very quickly. And especially given the and I don’t know how to descriptively put it together, but when there’s so much stress and so much happening day to day, you almost forget how quickly time passes.

30:52
Ali
Yes.

30:53
Nokhez
And especially hence why a lot of mothers say, oh, my God, is she so big already? Like, the time is passing because days roll in and out, and you’re so in that moment, you forget how much time has passed. So it may be very difficult. It may be very difficult for some parents, especially for those who don’t have extra support from their external families or friends, but try to find a way to get time for yourselves as partners. That kind of seeking support within each other. That is where you won’t have those discussions of like, oh, now you think I’m a bad parent. Oh, okay, I’m going to leave you alone with this monster. If you’re able to be like, hey, let’s do, like, a small date night. I’m not saying go for a movie. That will be I also know moms have a fear of leaving their newborns behind, the young ones.

31:44
Nokhez
The responsibility of finding a good nanny and all that. It just piles up. And I would say it’s a place of privilege for those who can get a nanny and can find someone to take care of the baby. But I’m talking about also just regular young couples who’ve just started off the parenthood journey.

32:01
Ali
You mentioned something earlier. I want to bring it back into discussion. You talked about this region and the Middle East and South Asia.

32:08
Nokhez
Don’t get me started.

32:10
Ali
I want to talk about are my brother stepping up?

32:14
Nokhez
No.

32:15
Ali
Okay, tell me more. Let me rephrase. Tell me how they can step up. Not stepping up. I know. Lazy as s***. Not my responsibility. This is the woman’s job. I’ve heard all of the stuff. Tell me straight. What do these guys need to do to step up?

32:29
Nokhez
Okay, first, I want to outline one or two things about what I mean by not stepping up. It is not stepping up if you are not actively involved in your child and your wife’s stress, if you are distantly trying to make efforts from far away and probing and being like, oh, I’m here, and you’re far away from the focal point. You’re not there. You’re not in the problem. You’re not managing something. And I feel like there’s a lot of this sort of management that comes up.

33:01
Ali
I have my friends, but, bro, I went and I got the diapers. But, bro, I got the formula. I’ve done 16 trips to the grocery store today. What else do you do?

33:11
Nokhez
I mean, if you are leaving your wife behind with the child for 17 trips, come on.

33:18
Ali
My response to that was, don’t there’s Kareem guys. No, even better. How about you stay with the child and let her do the groceries around because she hasn’t seen the son in a while. No, but when I say things like that, they look at me, we’re like, no. How am I supposed to be alone with the child? What if the child cries? I get this alien type of vibe coming from these people. I’m like, Dude, what if the child cries?

33:45
Nokhez
Oh, no, what if he poops?

33:47
Ali
Yeah, that’s a big one. Some of us don’t deal with diapers.

33:54
Nokhez
Nasty flashback. But the one thing is for especially fathers, for the new fathers, there’s a lot of fear that comes in. There’s a lot of, like, the sort of, oh, but I think I’m doing enough. Sit down with your wife and ask her what you could be doing. More simple discussion. See where she needs extra support, an extra hand. Right? And if you feel like there are things that she needs that you’re not particularly available for, then at least be a good, supportive husband. At least we can be a good partner. Be like be her bigger supporter if you build that confidence in her motherhood. Because believe me, when your child is crying, fifth hour in as a mother or as father or as whoever you are, you start questioning your sanity. You’re like, oh, when does this stop? All right? But if you can have your partner come around and also try to participate and just give you that break or be like, hey, you’re doing really well.

34:53
Nokhez
It’s hard having that communication where you feel supported in the system. You won’t feel the stress as much. And this is something that we it’s a kind of a general narrative throughout mental health. If you have the psychosocial support, you’re going out with good friends, going out with good people. If you have the good nuclear circle, if you have good support, you feel less of the s*** around you. If you have a burning house in the back. But at the same time, you’ve got a good support system that is like, we’re ready to take this fire down. You won’t feel the burden off the burning house. You will know you have the good team, so build a good team, all right? And especially, I feel like this should be a given, but from people who want to become parents. Have the tough discussions before you have a f****** kid.

35:44
Nokhez
Oh, agree, my friends.

35:46
Ali
No, 100% agreed. And by the way, I’m just not slamming on the guys, ladies. Some of the guys, they really try. They really step up. Communication is key. You don’t give them credit for it. You give the guy credit for it. The guy brings in, goes out for the 10th time in the middle of the night to get the diaper because the baby has outgrown the 60 pieces that are still in the house. And he doesn’t understand why the baby grows on a daily basis. It’s very weird because that’s how fast they grow. And if he’s made that trip, tell him, hey, man, thanks. I appreciate your help, rather than why it took you so long. I mean, I know some of my brothers are incompetent and embarrassing. We’ll kick them into gear. But, ladies, a little bit of support, a little bit of appreciation, trust me, goes a long way.

36:35
Nokhez
Goes a very long way. And I feel like that also taps into men’s mental health. Just like that tiny bit. Appreciation can go a very long way, especially when it’s that 10th, 12th, 13th, 15th trip in. And that tiny bit of appreciation, and not just for men’s mental health, but also for women. Just try. Half of communication is just complimenting and being nice to one another. I don’t understand. Why is it so hard to be nice to each other? And this is an example that I use with some friends. When you go out to be friends with someone, when you’re going out, and especially as a kid, you’re like, Is this person nice? Is where you start, all right? Why is it that at some point we become mean to each other? We’re like, you know what? I’m going to gaslight this person. I’m going to be passive aggressive.

37:19
Nokhez
How do we go from, I’m going to be a nice person. I’m going to put my best foot forward to Ellie. Here we go.

37:26
Ali
It’s too early to say bad parenting.

37:31
Nokhez
Good one.

37:32
Ali
We talked about a lot of stuff, but I kind of want to we did that one bit, did we not? Because one of the things I want.

37:39
Nokhez
To call the atypical development oh, sorry.

37:41
Ali
Please go ahead. Because then I want to talk about stigma after that.

37:44
Nokhez
So the one thing that I know that is very difficult s E Parenthood Deal and Manage is atypical development. When you notice and start realizing that your child might be a bit different, this is something that some parents may become very avoidant to. They think that the child would outgrow it. And this is where I really strongly emphasize, and this is from someone who is a neuropsychologist and a behavioral therapist. The earlier the intervention, the earlier the discussion with professionals, the more you understand about your own biases and the earlier you can get help, all right? In some cases, delayed help can cause greater issues. The reason they call it a spectrum is you will fall someone on the spectrum. So you want to catch it before it gets too far. You want to give the early interventions and give the early support before it I don’t want to say before it’s too late, because I hate that narrative in psychology where it’s like, before it’s too late.

38:40
Nokhez
But you want to make sure that you can support your child earlier than later, because for the time that your child is struggling, they’re developing incorrect coping mechanisms, indirect strategies, and those strategies can be very difficult to unlearn. So make sure that you find early help, early support, and also, as parents, it’s hard. It’s okay if it’s hard. Get a professional and talk to them. Be like, hey, I feel really s*** about this. It’s okay to feel s*** about it because it’s a very difficult position to be in. Talk to professional. The professional psychologist, psychotherapist, clinician counselor, whoever it is, will help you navigate those emotions, will help you also give you the tools of like, okay, you got to use this tool when this happens. Try this when this happens, and you won’t feel as alone. And this is also part of the seeking support.

39:32
Nokhez
Professional help is there. Family and friends are there. Your spouse is there. But also seek support within yourself. Don’t allow the negative no ruminations to go on for too long. If you catch yourself constantly thinking about, but what if I’m a s***** parent? Go see someone, all right? And it’s not bad. Probably this person is going to sit down and be like, actually, you’re a great parent. You were able to stay up and do this all for all these things for your child. It’s okay. You feeling s*** because you actually haven’t slept for two days straight. That’s why you feel s***, not because you’ve been a bad parent, because the kid cried for 2 minutes longer than necessary.

40:11
Ali
I’ve been part of a handful of very difficult conversations with close friends whose children they need to see somebody because something’s off. And I’m not the expert in anything, right? But even I could say, and I could even see that there was something off. And this is a parent who’s told me that their teachers at school or at nursery or wherever had indicated that you need to get an assessment done. And I’ve always been met with denial. Like, no, just grow out of it. It’s just how the kid is. It’s okay. I was like that or whatever, some excuse, some denial. I’ve either been met with that or I’ve been met with immense guilt. I did this to my child. This child is this way because of my genetic.

41:01
Nokhez
And based on stigma, the guilt is most heaviest on the mom because, for example, in autism, the older psychedelic theories were based on this is from the mother. And it’s a lot the guilt is destructive because without realizing you’ve emotionally detached. Without realizing you’re not consciously detaching, but you unconsciously are completely unavailable because you constantly think, I did this. In all cases, you’ve done as a parent, almost everything to make sure this child is okay, right? And you have to be proactive about it, though. You can’t be stressed as a horse. Sorry, stress as a horse? No. What’s animal that is stressed? Something that is very stressed. Okay, you can’t be stressed like that.

41:54
Ali
I’m pointing at me.

41:56
Nokhez
You can’t be stressed like Ali and.

41:58
Ali
Then don’t be stressed like Ali.

42:00
Nokhez
You can’t be stressed out and then be like, oh, hey, what happened to my kid? You’ve been stressed, you’ve been unavailable. You’ve not made time. You’ve not made time for your spouse. You’ve been fighting with your spouse day in, day out. And I really do mean it. It’s a very ugly web.

42:17
Ali
It’s a very cyclic ugly web that kind of feeds into itself and creates more trouble. What do I want to tell my friends who are riddled with guilt about developmental issues with their children right now, and they need to get assessments done and they’re blaming themselves for it? And then what I’ve noticed also is that there’s this isolation that comes with the guilt. The spouses don’t talk to each other. They both feel independently guilty about contributing towards the issue.

42:46
Nokhez
And sometimes I’ve seen and then a lot of blame.

42:48
Ali
Then the other darker side of this bullshit is then they blame. And then I’ve seen unfortunately, I’ve seen so many fantastic relationships fall apart.

43:00
Nokhez
The isolation is the scariest because that’s also what feeds it. I’m a youngish person, and being in Dubai for now almost a year, it’s very hard to find a social group to feel connected to sort of talk and like, I mean, I don’t mean one person. I mean a group, a circle of friends. You know, it’s tough. Finding the opportunity can be even tougher as a parent because you’re working and when you come home, kids crying, the.

43:33
Ali
House is on fire, oh, the logistics are insane. Finding other people to hang out with who have kids that are in their similar age brackets is virtually impossible.

43:44
Nokhez
You have the PTAs and the school events, but even then, you can find those only windows of opportunities where you’re.

43:50
Ali
Like, no, but even on that, it doesn’t work out because parents of kids of the same age might be different ages, and now you’re talking about decades apart. I got nothing in common except my kids are the same age. So it’s logistically very tricky given the pace of life. I think all these things are very tricky. We still are suffering with stigma when it comes to the parental mental health. How are we going to be looking at or address these issues?

44:19
Nokhez
I think, one, there just needs to be an open discussion. It starts to start off with the open discussion. I feel like a lot of parents, they don’t talk about it because of the shame and the guilt. They don’t want to show that, oh, I’m actually struggling. They don’t want to do any of that. But there’s also I think it’s a thing in psychology where we say, just talk.

44:50
Ali
That’s so easy to say, man. I mean, one of the things that I’ve tried to work on with my friends, and I said, look, you need to talk to your spouse. And I’m not talking about just the guys. You need to go talk to your spouse. I’m happy to listen to you, but I’m not in the situation your spouse.

45:07
Nokhez
Is because you got to talk to the other person.

45:09
Ali
You know what? I realized a lot of the times where it was like, okay, you know what? Talk it out with me. That’s fine. Get it out of your system. Then you’re able to unravel it, restructure it, put it together. But now please go back and talk to your spouse. In that, I found that sometimes even going to a support group, especially for mothers, new mothers, I think you need to be in a support group if you’re a new mother. The stuff that you’re dealing with is so alien. Nobody’s going to understand.

45:39
Nokhez
Learn so much from each other.

45:40
Ali
Exactly.

45:41
Nokhez
You feel less alone. And especially now, imagine you’re already alone staying at home because you got a baby demands so much love and all. Like, just so much of this child is taking out of you. And then you obviously will feel alone because your husband’s not doing the breastfeeding, he’s not doing the nappies 24/7 around the clock because he’s probably working for the time being because you’re on your maternal leave, and probably he’s there too. But he logistical issues, yes, he’s physiologically not been through that birthing experience so it’s tough. And this is where going to support groups and there are several forms. There’s one I know that in Dubai the lighthouse does a lot and guys I know there’s several clinics that do it. So if you’re interested and you like the thought of this, please check them out. There’s open clinics, open insights and there’s a bunch guys so do definitely check it out and maybe hopefully with this.

46:37
Ali
Podcast your doctor will also tell your guinea will tell you they’re aware of all the support groups that are in and around the area. We on our website have a directory of a whole bunch of things and.

46:45
Nokhez
We’Ll put something down with that.

46:47
Ali
We’ll also add more things to that.

46:48
Nokhez
To get to it. Support groups for new mothers really helps. I know that support groups for I don’t know about fathers but I feel like they should do so.

46:59
Ali
There is a support group for fathers bro don’t want to talk about it. No there isn’t in the sense and I really think it would be a great initiative. I just don’t. Next podcast perhaps circling back to how the men’s mental health is stigmatized specifically within parenthood is a whole different issue. I’ve seen guys go through a lot of stuff and the only person on the planet who knows about what they’re going through is me because they cannot share with anybody. And I think like you rightfully said, the stigma that we have surrounding parents and parent mental health, especially when they go through this huge life transition, really needs to be looked at and rightfully so. As you very aptly summarize, communication is key as unsurprisingly with most things. Excellent.

47:52
Nokhez
D***. I just realized there’s so much I still want to talk about. Well I know with this whole topic because when it comes to also dealing with your relationship with the atypical kid, dealing with the fact that just also knowing how can going on little dates, how that can impact your relationship.

48:11
Ali
I think there definitely needs to be a follow up. I’ve got a lot of parents neurodivergent kids, they struggle to be a parent, they struggle to understand their child and the guilt that they had and the shame that they felt not of the child, the shame that they felt as a parent. How did I not see this? How can I not help? What could I have done better? I can’t even begin to tell you a conversation but I think that would be a great topic to get on a podcast. I might even have a couple of people interested to sit in and share their life experiences. Absolutely fantastic. Thank you very much as always. Yet again another episode for you guys to listen to. Feel free to drop us comments, feedback on our Insta DMs wherever you can find us. We are pretty much on all the major podcast channels at this point.

49:07
Ali
This is a tough one, guys.

49:09
Nokhez
Do better, please. Like dudes and do debts. Please do better.

49:14
Ali
I’ll make this simple, guys. You don’t know what to do, reach out. I’ll tell you what you need to do. I’ll tell you how to step up. Ladies, please take care of yourselves. Please. Please communicate to your partners. I promise most of them are there to help you. And if they’re not, call me. I’ll call them and make them help you. I think I need to get a new T shirt. Mental health. Enforcer her.

49:39
Nokhez
I do aba. So mental health and reinforcer.

49:42
Ali
Reinforcer. That’s it, guys. Thank you very much for listening in. Have a good one. Bye.