S04E05 – Staying Grounded in Times of Uncertainty – Dr. Elif Celebi Adam

0:00 – Ali Khawaja

Alright guys, guess who? It’s me. Yes, yes, I know. We’re back. Yet another episode this season. Alhamdulillah is moving. You know, I, I know last season I dropped the ball, but we’re doing really, really good right now. We’re going through some very interesting times in the region. This is not something that we can ignore. You know, I definitely am not going to be weighing in on the geopolitical side or my opinion of it. Not honestly not relevant. But what is really, really relevant is what’s happening with people, what’s happening inside homes, what sort of issues and struggles and anxieties that everyone is going through. So I have a very lovely guest with me today. I’m going to ask her to introduce herself.

0:45 – Elif Adam

Yes. Hi. Thank you for having me. I’m Elif. I’m a clinical psychologist and I am the founder of Bellevue Therapy at JLT and I work with adolescents, adults, families in my practice.

1:03 – Ali Khawaja Fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time to come talk to us today. And I think the single biggest point of concern of everyone in the region is the, you know, the conflict that’s ongoing. We don’t know exactly what’s going on, we don’t know when it’s going to stop, we don’t know what sort of escalation. So the commonality is the don’t know. People are genuinely concerned about safety, they’re concerned about their jobs. Parents are concerned about what’s going to happen with school kids. Is the semester going to remain online? Will they come back? A lot of parents who have kids in high school have various board exams that need to be happening in the next month or so. So there’s a lot of ambiguity, a lot of unknowns that are going on. What’s your just kind of general feedback on this situation?

1:53 – Elif Adam

Well, such a good summary. When it start? The Saturday that it started, I had a flight booked on for Sunday, so flights started getting canceled, but mine wasn’t canceled. And I have the driver, driver is texting me, you know, I’m going to wake up by 7am So I have the phone with me and I’m thinking maybe it won’t be canceled because it’s not canceled yet. So I had take the phone with me to my bedroom and you remember the first alerts, alarms on the phone, very scary. I jumped, it’s like after midnight and I didn’t know what was going on. What is this alarm about? You know, I’m checking the phone. Is the flight cancelled and everything? Anyway, so by 5am it was canceled and I can relax a bit. But this was the beginning and it feels like it’s been a long time ago.

It’s only been about a month or so?

2:48 – Ali Khawaja

Just a little at this, at the time of our recording, just a little over a month

2:53 – Elif Adam

To me it feels like. And through my chats and talks with my clients, people, women, families, I feel like every day it’s changing. Every day there’s some kind of expectation either being kind of like dropped or there’s a hope or an expectation that is not fulfilled, or now we have to agree or accept something else that we didn’t think we would be having. So there’s the business side of it. Businesses are being affected. People have the worries about keeping their jobs or not. So I guess maybe what we can do, we can maybe visit these things. And me being a psychologist, I can offer some ideas or principles or just ways for us to understand the situation, you know, how to tolerate uncertainty. Uncertainty will bring some anxiety. And anxiety is not something clinical, only pathological. You know, it’s a normal human emotion. But when it’s sustained and it’s chronic, it is doing something to us. We’re losing the motivation, excitement. We cannot make plans.

4:06 – Ali Khawaja

Well, I hear you 100% on this. You know, just let’s, let’s dig in a little bit and then, then I already have a follow up questions in my head. Let’s talk about uncertainty in itself. How, how does uncertainty manifest with people?

4:22 – Elif Adam

In their nervous system first, I would say, you know, human mind is designed for predicting routine and certainty. Like we just want to wake up the, the same way every day. You don’t want to wake up and kind of make important decisions. Who am I, what do I want to do? How am I going to spend my day most of the time? Of course we may have some existential phases or crisis. So we like predictability, we like routine and order. So with uncertainty, what’s going on is this, you know, our nervous system may be reacting to it in different ways. If there’s a huge uncertainty and threat at the same time, you know, uncertainty is not neutral. It may also bring some threats. Because then you’re wondering what if this happens, that happen? Then we have a bit more of like fight or flight response in the nervous system. So scanning the environment, searching for threats, making kind of preparations, things, thinking about this is what I will do. The fight or flight response in the long run, we’re not supposed to have it, we’re supposed to relax, you know, the nervous system functioning. So if it’s sustained and chronic. It is not good for our hearts. We need to rest and relax, to be able to focus, to be able to produce, to be able to have positive emotions. Positive emotions like joy, love, patience, they are not going to thrive in an environment where you don’t have these nervous system rest and relaxation. So you can think of nervous system in two modes. Basically the fight or flight or freeze, which is the sympathetic nervous system versus parasympathetic nervous system is rest, relax, focus, produce, concentrate. So usually we find a balance between the two. Both of them are normal, but we find a balance. So if you are more leaning towards the fight or flight freeze then we’re unable to do the other ones. The fight or flight, a lot of people are familiar with it. They are not familiar with this other one called freeze. The freeze responses. And I see a lot of examples from my clients for this too. Lack of motivation, doom scrolling, you know, indecisiveness, giving up on routines. We used to have like exercise, like you know, going on activities with others, a bit of more avoidance, withdrawing, withdrawal from life. So that freeze response also kind of numbing. The emotions are also not, you know, negative there. So it’s either fight or flight on the one area or freeze. With this kind of avoidance, numbing, doom scrolling, lack of motivation is not good for us in the long run.

7:28 – Ali Khawaja

I hear you, you know similar things that I hear, I’m hearing from my friends also. And the same thing I tell them to do. I said look, everyone is different flavor of human, everybody’s built differently, everybody’s wiring is different. And if you’re the type who’s gonna be looking at all this constant information overload and it’s gonna cause you to stress out even more. Stop, stop, stop looking at it, you know, limit it or don’t look at it at all. I’ve got a few family members that I’ve told them, guys, just don’t. I’m okay with looking at this information. My brain is happier with more information than less information because then it can kind of process and assess the threat level and I remain calm through the process. Look, you don’t look. I will look. If something gets to a point where there, it’s a point of concern, I’ll let you know. But beyond that, just don’t. But it’s different. Everyone is reacting in a different way and everyone is struggling. And I think you said it very rightfully, everyone’s off balance now with the way the things that should be. You know how we’re looking at balancing the Things that are going on. You can’t be in a state of fight, flight, or freeze all the time. You can’t be in a state of heightened anxiety all the time. It takes a toll. And I can understand that, you know, if there’s a small issue, if it’s time limited. A couple of years ago, we had huge rains. There was a lot of flooding in different parts of the country. It only lasted a handful of days. People got to the other side of it, and then things started to normalize. But with the ongoing issue in the region, it’s like we just discussed, it’s already been a month. There is still, as of now, there’s no clarity as to what’s going to go on. Is it going to extend? Is it going to wrap up soon? We don’t know. And the UAE is uniquely positioned comparative to the rest of the Gulf countries because we have a very, very significantly large expat population. Then you have questions. Do I stay? Do I go? If I go, Do I come back? How long do I go for? I mean, it’s just mountains of questions, but with no clear answers. What’s been your experience with your clients or otherwise, about people struggling with the choice to stay or to go?

9:46 – Elif Adam

Yeah, exactly. It started to come up more and more. Initially, there was a bit of optimism, hope we’re strong, we stay strong. We are proud to be here in Dubai, which I felt too. I agree with it. But at the same time, we need to remember, you know, Dubai has worked so hard to build this prosperity, peace, stability in an area, you know, in an environment where it’s not given or it’s not automatic. So you can build a reputation for so long, but then this reputation could be lost fast. So people, I think, think like that, you know, is this impermanent? We thought it was permanent. You know, how could this be so impermanent? So the more we worry socially, too, we start to hear, you know, from others. It’s not just the Instagram or the YouTube, WhatsApp channels. WhatsApp groups. Oh, my God. Spreading false information.

10:45 – Ali Khawaja

So much bad information, so much false.

10:47 – Elif Adam

Fake news, false information. And unfortunately, they are spreading some propaganda.

10:54 – Ali Khawaja

Yes.

10:54 – Elif Adam

Without understanding. This is part of the war. This is propaganda. You have to be careful. You have to check it. You cannot share this information. So they are causing these ripple effects of people. Oh, like I am being asked, why aren’t you leaving? When are you leaving? We left. Why don’t you leave? Not just their families back home, but now some of their friends in Dubai also. So people Start to lose their friends, activity partners, and now the lives they’ve built here that bring them joy and happiness and it’s like a life worth living. I don’t have my partner for pedal, like I already paid for three months of pedal lessons. You know, what am I going to do? Or I was sending my kid to this activity and it’s canceled now. So a lot of people start to come with this lack of positive emotions, joy, that it takes effort to build a life in Dubai. It’s not very automatically given.

11:57 – Ali Khawaja

No, I, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this. And you know, first thing, straight up, respect to the, to the government and the leadership in the UAE. I’ve been here 26 years. They truly have done a phenomenal job. Truly have done a phenomenal job. I, I, even if you, you know, if you force me, I can’t pick a different country. I’m sorry, I’m still here, you know, my kids are here. My kids were born here. My kids, my daughter is now in university and my son is about to finish high school and not even for a moment, you know, leaving is an option for me. UAE is home. It’s that simple. And you know, in my head, and again, I’m not speaking for others. I can only speak for me when it comes to this. In my head, home is home. If it’s, we’re going through a rough patch, okay, we’re going through a rough patch, we’ll stick it out together. And ever since the situation started, you can see very active involvement from the leadership to maintain the calm, maintain the security. And I think they’ve done a very above reasonable job. Not just a reasonable, above reasonable job. So that’s definitely there. But yes, we have, you know, sometimes I joke about it that we have first world problems, like, oh, where am I going to go play paddle with now?

13:08 – Elif Adam

Right?

13:08 – Ali Khawaja

Like that type of stuff. But it’s true, for example, for myself, this weather, all my friends know me, this weather is like the best. This is when I’m supposed to be in the desert, I’m supposed to be camping, I’m supposed to be going off roading, I’m supposed to be riding my motorbike. And I’m not because, you know, caution, we’re taking a little bit of caution. This is what I’m telling everybody. I’m like, guys, a little bit of caution goes a long way. At the same time, I don’t want you to, you know, lock yourself in the house. That’s also not healthy. This is not the directive we’ve been given in terms of how safe. And yes, they’re going way too much, and that’s causing even a deeper problem. But let me just look at that little dissection of the impact to our social life. Because in the UAE, we are very involved in society. We’re involved with activities with friends. Whether it’s my kids in school or me and my friends just going for an off road trip or, you know, another one of my groups going for a bike ride. Like yesterday day for yesterday, somebody posted in the group, hey man, let’s go for a ride. And somebody’s like, man, there’s still areas that have some water and flooding. And he just joked, he goes, yeah, we’ll be careful. And then that one particular gentleman, he decided not to join. The others definitely went, it’s okay. I think there is definitely an adjustment. But what do we do, you know, just to kind of get onto the side of the positive resources and tools and tips and tricks. What do we do when our social interaction gets limited? How do we counterbalance that?

14:40 – Elif Adam

Yeah, this is a major mental health issue. You know, social. A lot of research shows that our, you know, positive emotions, well, being and health in general, and mental health also comes from social connections, how long we live, you know, all these things. So it is not just like a who am I gonna play pedal with issue is just an example or, you know, manifestation of it. But when you hear friends are leaving, they have left. Let’s say I have three close friends. If one of them leaves, it’s one third of my social network that I have social interaction, I do activities, my children play together. So it cuts off a big chunk. And again, uncertainty with when they’re coming back. How am I gonna, you know, with these two, three months before the summer? So to answer that question, what to do about it, I think you made a good point with extreme caution. Like, not leaving the house unless it’s recommended. Like, it’s not like Covid right now.

15:49 – Ali Khawaja

Yeah.

15:51 – Elif Adam

So how do we continue social interactions? Just maybe thinking about that, you know, maybe staying connected. Sometimes a little bit of a text goes a long way. Checking on people. Right. I remind my clients that we shouldn’t expect the perfect and we shouldn’t avoid things just because they are not perfect. So avoid avoiding, I say, as like a slogan motto. Like, you know, if you find yourself avoiding, you know, what’s. What’s the point of just writing a text or meeting for a coffee for half an hour? You know, it is something. It is very important. We may not be Very close and intimate with people. It is still okay to do activities, catch up, you know, just like casual interactions, say hi, hello, you know, interact whenever we see them with our neighbors and stuff. So creating an environment where it’s more there, we create availability to opening up socially. You know, other people can also see that. I think one thing I see a lot is isolation and people go to their own corners and they think they are the only ones like dealing. When you talk to people you see it’s the same, everybody is going through the same things, remembering this universal thing. And you know, I think every community have their own resources, brainstorming or coming up with some ideas. Maybe you and I, even now you can come up with some ideas about different social interactions and occasions. I am part of the Turkish Business Council and I’ve noticed they start sending emails about family breakfast. They try to help with some local businesses as well as offer discounts and come together on a Sunday, have some family breakfast together. So just like, you know, one idea like that, maybe meeting people that we don’t know.

17:52 – Ali Khawaja

I think you said it exactly the way it is. You know, you have to avoid avoiding and I think that self imposed isolation is just horrible because then what all you do is you sit and you cook. Your brain just starts cooking all the wrong stuff and it starts adding all the wrong things and it catastrophizing and I think that’s just not smart way to deal with it. So you know, obviously I set up mental health AE a little over six years ago with my co founder Latifah. The same directive, same purpose for us still applies. You know, we want to have conversations, we want to normalize having conversations about mental health and wellness. And that’s I think exactly what we need to do now. Not to isolate but to have those conversations. I like what you said about essentially being proactive with the socialization rather than being passive, rather than oh, I have two standing appointments and with four of my friends and now that’s getting changed. Now let’s get a little bit more proactive and as a community we definitely should come together. I already know of a lot of businesses who are on the early stages of losing clients. Sales are gone down. We’re starting to see this type of stuff pop up on Instagram with a lot of different, especially the food sector, F and B sector primarily. And I think that’s brilliant idea, you know, let’s get together for a breakfast that helps the local business, that helps people connect and communicate. So I think a proactive approach exactly what you said a proactive approach to positive socializing and not getting together to further catastrophize. I think that’s important because I’ve been to a handful of gatherings where, you know, they’re just digging a bigger hole and I’m like, guys, what are you doing? I’m not going to hang around with you guys if you keep digging a bigger hole. The situation is what it is. That’s it. Don’t make it more. You’re only going to worry people. But I think that’s great. The other thing I want to kind of tangent into a little bit is, and we had a little bit of this was during COVID and I think this time around it’s different because of the situation. So during COVID we had, you know, online schooling and this was, for a lot of parents, a massive disaster. How do you, especially the younger kids, how do you manage the younger kid in their online schooling? And you have your own work to do and there’s only limited space in the house and people are on top of each other and that creates a lot of logistical issues. But now on top of that, their kids are scared. So, yes, as adults, we have the ability to look at the information objectively, adjust our level of absorption, and even then we’re not perfect at it. But when we talk about kids, the younger they get, their understanding of the situation is totally different. One kid in the playground can say something and then all the other kids come home crying because all of a sudden the world is ending. Any recommendations on how parents can manage their children better during these times?

20:54 – Elif Adam

You know, I think first thing I would say set realistic expectations during this time. You know, like you said, all these things going on at the same time. Maybe this is not the time ideal for kids thriving in this new class and learning this material perfectly. You know, so we’re just kind of like getting by and it is okay. You know, go with the flow and just set realistic expectations. Don’t be hard on the kids or yourself.

21:25 – Ali Khawaja

I like that.

21:26 – Elif Adam

Yeah, so that’s. I mean, normally we would say keep the routines. Sleep time, bedtime. You know, try not to change the routines. You know, do not underestimate. Time to relax, rest, you know, family time together. You know, some people, maybe it’s not that important to cook foods right now. Like, I don’t feel that hungry. You know, it’s just an example. Right. Your body still needs the nourishing food, so kind of investing time and energy if you can.

21:58 – Ali Khawaja

Yeah.

21:58 – Elif Adam

To do that is an act of self care. It should be top of the list.

22:02 – Ali Khawaja

Yes.

22:03 – Elif Adam

Not the bottom of the list. Let’s just order, you know. Okay. Order food, too.

22:06 – Ali Khawaja

But yes, I think that’s. I think that’s very apt. And, you know, I remember during COVID times, my kids were a little bit younger. Now they’re in college and high school, and I noticed that they were getting a little antsy. You know, luckily for them, they were on their little Insta phone. Not Insta, the. Their phones with the different whatever apps. And they were connected to all their friends. Like, literally, they’re walking around with six little faces on their phones of their friends. It was all. I found it so funny. But they adapted really well in the sense that, you know, they figured out how to still maintain that social connection. I mean, think about it. You’re in a. You go to a classroom every day for so many hours, you’re constantly surrounded by your peers, and now all of a sudden, you know, you’re stuck at home with dad. Not super exciting, and dad’s grumpy because he’s got work, right? And then, of course, I can’t be there to entertain them. That’s not parenting. So they were able to socially manage, but I could still feel there was a lack of. They felt very kind of like, you know, bouncing off the walls because we weren’t leaving the house a lot. And I told them, guys, it’s a little while longer before some of the restrictions get lifted. And when they did, we started going out. And again, I think what you mentioned earlier in our talk today, so we were definitely more proactive with our planning, intentionally making sure to go out, not to going to. At that time, I don’t know. There was an issue with going to crowded in public places, but we would go to the park, we would go for barbecue. We would go, you know, somewhere. And we had kind of limited ourselves to a couple of our families and a few family friends just to kind of keep the bubble small because it still wasn’t open open. Now it’s a little different. The social aspect, they’re still managing. They’re walking around with their phones and their iPads connected to their friends. But there still is an element of fear. And what I’ve noticed is it’s. I’m not sure if there’s a term for it, but in my head, I call it the least common denominator. So in the cluster of friends, whichever one is catastrophizing the worst, that becomes everybody’s default, you know, and the number of times I’ve had to Have a conversation with my son or my daughter and say, listen, that’s not what’s going on. Sit down with me. Put your phone away. Let me explain to you what’s going on. This is what’s going on. This is how things are being handled. Not what your friend said. Your friend is not getting the right information. But Baba. I’m like, no, there’s no Baba, listen. And you need to also understand that there’s a difference between noise and as you said, propaganda and whatever this. And panic.

24:32 – Elif Adam

Conspiracy theories.

24:33 – Ali Khawaja

Yes. Conspiracies and you know, everyone’s cooking and the reality. So you need to understand how to differentiate. And you need to understand to put your mind’s weight on the reality and it will help you calm down. And that’s exactly what you know, it worked. The kids are significantly more comfortable now than they were a couple of weeks ago when the situation started. But it’s much harder for younger kids and families with younger kids.

24:58 – Elif Adam

I like that, like sticking to the facts. You know, these are the facts that we know as of today. You know, what you’re describing is this kind of spin off story or narrative is unfounded. There are no facts about it right now as we know of it right now. So the facts will ground us. And identifying and recognizing the emotions. What is the emotion? Is it anger? Because I am hearing a lot of anger. Maybe it’s not said in the public social domain. It’s not expressed as much. But it is normal for us to feel some anger right now. Frustration, disruption in our lives. And this anger could be directed to different things. You can find yourself angry about some unrelated minor stuff.

25:48 – Ali Khawaja

Oh yes.

25:49 – Elif Adam

I found myself, yeah.

25:51 – Ali Khawaja

100% everybody who knows me about the next thing I’m about to tell you, you’re gonna laugh. And they were like, yeah, that’s so Ali. So a couple of days ago, we had the issue with the rains and then I wanted to order food and the food delivery apps were kind of like basically, you know, restaurants were not available. Not available. Not available. I just, I got angry. I just sitting there angry, fuming. And my kids were like, papa, what’s wrong? Why are you hangry? Is everything okay? Did something happen? I’m like, my food delivery can’t come. And they just look at me like, wait, you’re angry because your food can’t get delivered? Yeah. And they just laughed. They laughed and left. I’m like, thank you for supporting me. It’s just, it just shows up differently.

26:33 – Elif Adam

Mine is the comments on YouTube videos. So I read some of the Comments, I get more angry. I start like ruminate about it, think about it, overthink about it. So anger, fear or like what you describe with kids, fear or worry, you know this again, a normal human emotion. It is okay to have it. We can try to talk about the intensity of it. So this is my top tip for about these emotions in the kids. From zero to hundred. You know what would be an appropriate level of this emotion? First we identify it. Is it anger or fear? Just two examples. There could be other emotions, negative emotions, like sadness is also a major one from loss. My friends have left, I cannot go to school. There is a loss there. So it is justified human emotion to have sadness when we lose something that is important to us, meaningful or relevant to us. If we don’t have sadness, how would we know it’s meaningful or relevant? So emotion tells us. This is important too. So anger, sadness and fear or anxiety are three main emotions that are extremely relevant and justified in the current situation. However, if we or our kids find ourselves having these emotions intensely from 0 to 100, let’s say appropriate level would be 40, 50, but we have 80 or 90 constantly, then there’s something going on there. How do we adjust the level of an emotion? You know, once we identify it, understand it, try to find ways, like cognitively we can find reason, rationale, like the checking the facts is an example. Do we have any evidence or proof that what you describe is going on right now? Right. Okay, so there’s not much evidence or proof. If we do, then what would be a scenario of problem solving? How can we cope with it in a similar situation? Like this other friend of yours, remember, like you’ve seen that she was very calm, right. What would be appropriate, what would be an appropriate reaction to give in this kind of situation? So all these are kind of a bit ways of regulating adjusting the level of emotions. Emotions are okay, but the intensity and the level we can work with.

28:58 – Ali Khawaja

Oh, I like what you said there. A lot of perspective. That’s a lot. Thank you very much. That’s a, that’s a lot of perspective right there. You know, and I think one of the struggles people have is with self regulation. It’s different. You know, getting an external perspective sometimes makes all the difference in the world. I remember, you know, I always go back to the example of my kids. I remember, you know, growing up, you know, one kid would get very excessively cranky or passive aggressive at something and I would just kind of be, I mean I could yell back at him, right? And I would Pause. And I’d like. Your reaction is not justified. So why don’t you take a minute to think about the way you spoke to me, what you said to me, and then ask yourself why? And you don’t need to respond to me. This is just food for thought. Now walk away and go to your room before you’re grounded forever. But, you know, did it work? Yeah, yeah, it works. I mean, look, people are intelligent every age, you know, I’m not going to say people as adults, people, kids, children, babies, they’re all intelligent. You give them the right information, you give their brain the time to process it and learn from it. They do, you know, and if you operate with that expectation and you help them understand perspective, you help them understand, you know, look at the information, different ways, put it together, different ways be patient in putting the information together, it makes all the difference in the world. So definitely, definitely. I’ve seen that work times are tricky. You know, you have friends who are leaving. We’ve got friends and neighbors who have left, but. And my kids are kind of like, baba, is everyone leaving? Should we also leave? And I said, look, a lot of them have already been told that they can work from home. A lot of them already had their summer break planned to go back to their respective home countries. They’re just going back early. Right. So you also have to understand that they’re not going back or they’re not leaving because of the situation. They’re just taking an extended summer holiday because they can actually leave right now. And once you talk to a lot of people, that is their reality, they are leaving. I’m not sugarcoating the situation, but for some of them, it’s just an early summer holiday because if I’m going to remotely work or remotely teach, I can do it from, you know, back home.

31:12 – Elif Adam A

nd some of them, if you ask them, they would have said, I would have preferred to stay in my own home if I could. Right. It doesn’t mean they are preferring, they really want to leave, but it’s just the right decision for them, Good fit for them. But a lot of people would have just stayed in their own homes.

31:30 – Ali Khawaja

No, very true. And for me, I’m very comfortable in my home, you know, and my kids, I’m originally from Pakistan, I grew up in Saudi. I’ve been in the UAE now 26 years. My kids were born here. And every summer, including this summer, every summer since they were babies, Same discussion. Baba, where are we going for the summer? So and so is going to Canada. So and so is going To Turkey. So and so is going to the uk. I’m like, all, all the so and so’s are from those countries. They have homes in those countries. Both of your grandparents, mom’s side and dad’s side live in the UAE. My mom is 10 minutes away, my mother in law is 20 minutes away. I’m like, go to any of your grandparents houses, that is your summer holiday. We don’t have somewhere to go for three months because for them that’s the home, that’s their home, country home. For us, this is home. So that’s always a funny thing. Even now when a lot of their friends were leaving. Baba, what about us? Shouldn’t we leave? I’m like, this is not a level of emergency, we need to leave. Don’t mix the two. They are able to leave because work and school has switched to online. And in their head, why not start my summer break early and go back to my hometown where my own house is. So I think a lot of information, the right information is important to understand what’s happening with the situation. And you know, and like you mentioned earlier, and I’m going to kind of circle back to this, these little WhatsApp groups and you know, they’re just horrible. They’re horrible. I’ve told my mom, I told her during COVID I reminded her again when the situation here started. I said listen, first, first rule, do not forward anything. First rule, right? Do not. If I send you something, you can forward it because I will send you something that is linked directly to a UAE based trusted authority or news, like I’ll send you from Gulf News or I’ll send you from the UAE ministry my stuff you can forward, everything else you don’t. And she goes, why? I’m like, because I’m going to send you stuff and I’ll be responsible. I will check that this is from the source and not just some AI screenshot. Whatever, whatever. And she’s like, okay. And she understood it, now she doesn’t forward it. But of course if something pops up in Your, in your WhatsApp, you’re going to have a look at it. So I got a very panicked call a few days going. Are you okay? Have you guys evacuated? Ah, I’m like, mama, whatever you’re looking at is wrong. There’s nothing going on. Just chill out. Just delete what you got. Oh, so you’re okay? Yes mama, I’m okay. Okay, okay, fine. Thank you. Good night. You know, but sometimes you just need one other person to verify it for you. I always Say that your circle of friends is very important and during a time of crisis or difficulty. I think that circle of friends imports 10xs. If you’re talking to your circle of trusted people and they’re giving you the wrong information, or they’re adding fuel to the fire, or they’re conspiracy theorizing, whatever. I’m not sure if that’s a word. All of that is really, really bad. And I think selective filtering on the information is important, but selective filtering is not isolating. That’s two different things. Tell me a little bit more about what would be your recommendation on how, how we absorb the information that’s coming from all the channels around us?

35:05 – Elif Adam

Yeah, so maybe one idea is not to be constantly checking it. You know, we can set aside a more intentional, structured times that now I am in the head space to be able to digest this information, pay attention, you know, use my own good judgment to be able to, you know, relate to this information. I mean, it’s not a good idea to have a TV in the background all the time, like talking about these things. I always say do one thing at a time. So having a TV in the background or some kind of news running, blasting, you know, it’s not a good idea. Like we want to do one thing at a time in a. From a mindful way. So setting aside a time or intentionally, you know, like you said, identifying certain news, certain channels, and the opposite of that is this kind of scrolling. You know, that’s what the social media companies want you. This attention economy.

36:09 – Ali Khawaja

Well, that’s how they make money, right?

36:11 – Elif Adam

Working beautifully for them. But you end up, if you end up, you wake up, you reach out for the phone first thing in the morning, and then you end up spending 40 minutes before you even leave the bed, one hour, even longer, that’s terrible.

36:27 – Ali Khawaja

That’s gonna, that’s gonna set a negative precedent for the whole day. You’re just. Your head’s going to be in the wrong zone.

36:33 – Elif Adam

It’s doing something to our brain for sure. It is very like hormonal, chemical. It’s not just psychological, but it’s absolutely doing something to our brain. You know, you’re engaging, there’s a lot of attention being put because it’s constantly changing. On the one hand, it’s kind of rewarding, reinforcing, like stimulation. You are being stimulated. On the other hand, are you choosing. Is this intentional? Is this effective for you to spend an hour in bed before you start your day? Scrolling? Right. So asking these questions and really I ask, I tell clients and I personally do this too. I don’t take the phone with me to the bedroom.

37:16 – Ali Khawaja

I think that’s smart.

37:17 – Elif Adam

Yeah.

37:18 – Ali Khawaja

And I think that’s almost impossible for most people.

37:21 – Elif Adam

Try it, try it.

37:23 – Ali Khawaja

I know a lot of people who actually, you know, that’s good.

37:25 – Elif Adam

Right now, the alerts. Yes, right now we have a reason. You know, I want to be able to hear the alarms or alerts, but in general, you know, are we checking the phone last thing before we go to bed, first thing in the morning? How intentional is it? How effective is it for you? How is it aligned with.

37:46 – Ali Khawaja

I think they just described addiction. Last thing I do before I go to bed, first thing I do when I wake up. This is an addiction. And just to carry off of what you said, I think it’s very important to be able to filter. And I know most people can’t. They can’t pick up the phone and only check one thing. For example, I wake up in the morning, I’ll open my phone, I’ll quickly check my WhatsApp, is there anything important? And then I’ll leave a whole bunch of messages unread until later in the day. I’ll pop open my email, I’ll quickly have a look. Is there any urgent subject line for me? Nothing. Okay. I won’t even open the rest of the emails and I won’t touch social media till way later in the day. Let me wake up, let me freshen up, let me get my coffee, let me get the day going and then if I find a gap, I’ll look at it. But I can guarantee you I’m the minority when it comes to this. I think we are currently in a society where this constant need for this information dump and not of even quality is definitely creating a problem. Which is nice because this actually brings me to my next question and I realize we’re running out of time, so I’ll try to keep it short when we talk about pre current situation, just regular good old normal days. We’ve seen a massive rise in social media consumption and we know that this more or less directly correlates to mental health and wellness. We’ve seen this. I’m sure there’s tons of data. Your expert in your industry will definitely know more than me. But I’m seeing this from like I’m the outsider who can see this data coming across my searches when I’m looking for different things. When we are in a position of crisis, why does this increase? Why do people want to absorb even more information all while knowing that it’s not good for them.

39:47 – Elif Adam

Yeah, but 300,000 years of human evolution, you want to know if there’s a threat, I need to act. Like I said, a lot of things have changed in this last month and they are going to want to know what are my peers doing? Right? It’s like a norm. They want to know like some kind of developments. Some of it could be fact, some of it may not be fact. So we do have a good rationale or reason to want to do this. Okay, but like you said, it doesn’t mean you have to be plugged in it 24 hours a day. Absorbing kind of being penetrated by these informations from all around. But it is a good idea to be more intentional about it. The reason I think it’s like a genetic or evolutionary or emotional. We have those reasons in our attention and brains. But it is up to us how much, you know, I mean most people enjoy watching something interesting stimulation video games, right. So it’s not a matter of why do we want to do it or why do we enjoy it, but it’s a matter of how much of it is I can absorb how much of it is effective for me where I’m at, my life. Is this an addiction turning into an addiction or avoidance, like the numbing is a part of avoidance. Something could start as reward, like I worked hard all day, I’m just gonna sit back and relax and enjoy this movie news or you know, video games. But it can easily turn into an avoidance strategy. Now it’s 2am I’m not going to bed. You know, next, next day I have this and that. Now I’m going to be more tired. Yes, now I’m going to blame myself, feel guilty about it, which creates this vicious cycle. So it is easy to get stuck, slip into these patterns of negative vicious cycles where we find ourselves. I don’t have power over this. I feel guilty about it. I blame myself. Overall it just triggers another negative emotion. Now you’re more likely to watch it because you want to relieve the negative emotions. Now you don’t want to go out, do an activity or try something new because it requires some positive emotions, some motivation, some energy. So this kind of vicious cycle that I describe idea could be applied to many different things. Answering your question about the social media for children and adolescents. Now we do have some data that proves, you know, consistently we find maybe not very major effects but small but negative effects to self esteem performance, you know, well being of children and adolescents through social media exposure. The more time they spend on it, all these other Outcomes are going down. So this is published in prestigious medical journals. You know, I like, as a scientist, I take a kind of cautionary approach to these things. Social media is bad. But now we know that we have reasons to, you know, regulate this or ask kids to be more careful about it, limit the time about it on the one hand. On the other hand, there’s the social aspect. Like you said, this is how kids connect.

43:18 – Ali Khawaja

This is how they connect. Yes.

43:19 – Elif Adam

This is their microcosm, like, you know, ecosystem, whatever. Yeah.

43:27 – Ali Khawaja

Well, great. This has definitely been a great conversation. Before we wrap up, any advice you want to leave with people listening about how to, you know, get to the other side of this current situation?

43:37 – Elif Adam

Well, we’re all in the same boat and I really enjoy this conversation. Connecting, having conversations, maybe not just about this topic of the current situation. Normal life issues as well, you know, kind of as much as possible normalizing it. Avoid avoiding, we said.

43:58 – Ali Khawaja

Oh, I like. I love that one. Avoid avoiding. That’s like the theme for today. I love it.

44:02 – Elif Adam

Yeah. Avoid avoiding means do not underestimate.

44:06 – Ali Khawaja

Yes.

44:06 – Elif Adam

Oh, it’s just a 10 minute walk to the park is not going to solve anything if we think like that. These things, we need to build them up throughout our lives every day. Right. And it also includes intentional planned activities. Like you said, being proactive and you know, I think impermanence like, like Covid, it felt like it will never end. Which last I remember compared to Covid, it’s only been one month and nothing is like completely fixed or permanent. This is going to be impermanent and radical acceptance idea of accepting. This is the situation we are losing. Some people maybe if your friends are leaving, there is a loss of this certainty. Loss of our routines or regular lives. How can I practice this gratitude as well as some acceptance of the things that I cannot control. This is the antidote to uncertainty and anxiety. Is intentionally practicing this kind of. Okay, I accept. Today I won’t be able to do xyz. Like I won’t be able to attend school in person. My children won’t be able to do that, for example. It requires intentional practice. We cannot automatically accept things first. We kind of understand there is non rationale. If you’re debating it shouldn’t happen this way. Right. There’s a lack of acceptance there based on the previous historic factors. All these like XYZ situation. It kind of like happens this way we can understand we don’t have to approve of it. Not approval is acceptance is not approval. But acceptance is. These are the facts of my life right now. And today I practice this, relaxing into my life that I cannot control these things. There’s this book called let them theory. So it’s the same idea, let them, but let me do these other things. The intentionality, the gratitude, the active participation in my life or making these decisions, like if I’m indecisive. And every day I come up with the same indecisiveness, like, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? Take a gentle step, a kind step toward that, taking action toward that goal. All these things are going to help you practice this kind of acceptance, which results in a bit more peace and contentment and overall, well being.

46:41 – Ali Khawaja

Fantastic. I think that was amazing. Perfect summary, I think in terms of distress and dysregulation and distraction. I think intentional is the right way. That’s the theme, I think, from what I’m hearing. I love it. Once again, thank you very much for taking the time to come talk to everybody, guys. As usual, I’ll have all the contact information somewhere. Depending on which platform you’re looking at, you can reach out to our wonderful guest. Thank you.

47:09 – Elif Adam

You’re welcome. Thank you for having me. Thank you for watching.