S03E10 – Communication in Healthy Relationships – Ray

00:05
Ali
Hey, guys, welcome back. Ali here and I’m here with Rahaf, and we are on this podcast journey of adventure and intrigue and controversy, and we’re loving it. So the last one you probably heard was us doing this whole thing with the red flags and what things are and aren’t red flags. So, interesting enough, a lot of the things that we concluded to or came to the conclusion of was that it’s communication. It’s out of communication or lack thereof. So that’s kind of our topic of today, talking about the importance of communication and healthy relationships or how communication can build healthy relationships.

00:43
Ray
I read a quote the other day, and I just stared at it and I was like, wow, if a relationship felt too good to be true, believe it, because that’s what a healthy relationship feels like.

00:58
Ali
And I was like, yes. And I have a lot of friends that I tell. I’m like, guys, you complain about meeting somebody and it’s boring. I’m like, it’s not boring. A healthy relationship or a healthy partner is someone who brings you peace.

01:16
Ray
But that’s what we mistake for boredom when you have been in so many toxic relationships.

01:22
Ali
Exactly.

01:23
Ray
Even in friendships, you know what I mean? So I wouldn’t blame anyone that would mistake boredom with peace. It is a journey. It takes a long time for you to make that distinction.

01:37
Ali
And one of my friends very rightfully gave an example, goes, ali, if you’ve been raised in a house that’s on fire all the time, you look for a firework factory because that’s what you think is a relationship, not someone who is peace or brings peace to the think. I think there’s a lot to be said of even what is a healthy relationship. And I put down some notes before we started. And defining healthy relationships, a couple of words that popped up are trust, respect, empathy, and communication.

02:11
Ray
These are basics.

02:12
Ali
But see the basics and all my friends know that. I always say trust and respect is the foundation and everything that’s built on top of that.

02:21
Ray
I would add safety.

02:23
Ali
Well, with trust and respect, that’s the foundational layer. And then safety.

02:28
Ray
But safety comes first. For me, safety comes first because it’s the strong foundation of feeling safe that will lead to trust and respect to trust.

02:39
Ali
When you feel safety, you’re feeling the trust and you’re feeling the respect, you feel connected. Exactly. And so, well, if we look at these guys as building blocks, the two or three or four of them, and then we talk about building relationships on top of these essential problem, I guess, is that if these don’t exist, or if we ignore these to chase the fireworks and whatnot, and oh, there was a spark. I’m like, guys, a spark is a biological reaction for you to mate with somebody. That’s the spark that you feel. If you’re looking for a long term healthy relationship, you’re supposed to feel comfortable. You’re supposed to feel at peace. You’re supposed to feel at ease. Well, you’re supposed to feel supported. You don’t sacrifice all of that for the spark. You have all of that as foundational. And then you can build an adventure on top of it also.

03:30
Ali
Right. But this goes back to what type of people you, for example, are. But if we talk about communication, I.

03:37
Ray
Could see where this episode is going. Yes.

03:39
Ali
If we talk about communication, how significant.

03:44
Ray
Is it to oh, my God.

03:45
Ali
Let’s start with that. How significant is it? Is a small piece, big piece?

03:48
Ray
Medium. If there’s, let’s say, top ten list, it would be above number one.

03:54
Ali
Above number one.

03:55
Ray
You know what I mean? Yeah, but here’s my question to you, because whenever I say this, what I’m about to say, I get mixed feedback. I believe I’m a huge believer that big topics should be discussed before getting in a relationship. Big topics like expectations, future plans, kids or no kids, space, me time, quality time, love languages, fight languages, investments, whatever it is, intimacy. What do you do when you are not emotionally well? How do you express big topics? Family, friends? Then get into a relationship.

04:41
Ali
I agree with you. We’re on the same page on this. But what I’ve always found is people don’t figure out when to have that conversation. Hey. Hi. Nice to meet you. I’m Ali. Let’s go on a date.

04:54
Ray
I have a survey for you.

04:56
Ali
Yeah, exactly. No. Here’s a QR code with a Google form link.

05:00
Ray
Please fill this form.

05:01
Ali
It will take you 15 to 20 minutes, depending on how much thought you put into it.

05:05
Ray
Not on first date. Come on.

05:08
Ali
So at what point do you throw this in?

05:10
Ray
Because it depends how connected you are with the person.

05:13
Ali
Well, see, now that’s a double edged sword. Right? I’m just playing devil’s advocate.

05:16
Ray
Let’s do that.

05:17
Ali
Because I’ve had these conversations with many of my friends. It’s double edged sword. So what exactly is going on in that scenario that wait a second. I’m getting to know this person. I don’t want to freak them out. Okay. I think I like this person. Things are getting serious, but I don’t want to scare them off.

05:32
Ray
But you just set the script. That’s exactly what communication is, to open your cards, be okay with your vulnerability. Hey, listen, dude, I think I’m having a bit of feelings for you. Or I feel that this could go somewhere, and I am freaking out to freak you out when I say this, but I do have some things that I would like to discuss with you just to make sure there would be no surprises in the future and that we’re heading somewhere mutual. But I could be as clear and honest like this. I’m scared because I think it might freak you out. I hope not, but these things have to be discussed so you don’t come one day and say, oh, I don’t want kids. But I thought you want kids.

06:16
Ali
Who initiates this conversation? The guy or the girl?

06:18
Ray
It doesn’t matter.

06:21
Ali
I can tell you a mountain is on the side of the girls will not initiate this conversation.

06:27
Ray
I would.

06:28
Ali
And the guy’s side would be I.

06:29
Ray
Would because I don’t want to waste my time. I don’t want to waste his time, and I don’t want to be wasting my energy with someone who’s going to suck away my energy just because let’s see where this goes. I have no time for that.

06:40
Ali
I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, that’s not where I see everybody else moving in. I feel everybody that I’ve talked to who? Well, first, they’re not even talking. The handful who do talk, not to each other, they’re not talking about this. And they’re not even talking to each other about this. They’re talking to me about this. And so many conversations. I’m like, guys, why don’t you talk.

07:01
Ray
To your significant have you heard about boundaries?

07:03
Ali
Why are you talking to me? No, bro, I’m scared. I’m worried I’ll scare her off.

07:08
Ray
Oh, my God. Well, one, you should set a boundary.

07:12
Ali
What are you looking for? Well, they come to me as a safe space to kind of I hope they’re hearing this. Oh, they’re definitely hearing this. Stop doing that. My people are hearing they know where my boundaries are and they’re very kind and respective. But the issue is that I think it’s not just about the conversation. It’s also about getting people to have the conversation. They’re in this pre honeymoon of the honeymoon phase where they are so busy to impress each other. The biggest conversation flag when we need it. The biggest conversation is, oh, do you think she’s going to like this cologne or this cologne?

07:46
Ray
I’m like that’s. Okay, we’re not going to belittle anything here.

07:49
Ali
Can we move past aren’t you guys past this part yet?

07:52
Ray
No. You’ve been dating for six months. We should not be past that. I feel, or I think and I know for a fact that my next relationship is going to feel like a honeymoon all the time. But does that mean on a honeymoon you wouldn’t get any disagreements or you wouldn’t want some space for yourself or you wouldn’t be in a heated argument the way were talking about it in the last episode. We will, but the respect is there. Trust is there. Empathy is there. So why not be on a honeymoon for the rest of your life? Rahav, you’re not being realistic. You create your own honeymoon by communicating.

08:30
Ali
My Lord, it’s a big topic. It’s a big topic.

08:33
Ray
Actually, you know what?

08:35
Ali
No, I didn’t hear you. Let me correct myself. I don’t think it’s a big topic. I think it’s really simple.

08:41
Ray
I met couples like that.

08:42
Ali
But I think it’s just become a big thing to do because there’s this resistance to do it. And that’s why I think it’s big. If you think about it, is it.

08:52
Ray
Resistance, Ali, or is it because so many people are in already? I don’t want to call all of them toxic relationship just relationships that are not serving them.

09:01
Ali
Yes, they keep running through them, waiting.

09:04
Ray
For purpose because it has been growing a lot. We see a lot of relationships like this, so it became common. So I feel that we should start not take those kind of relationships as a metric. Just because we have so many relationships or so many people doing this doesn’t mean it’s right.

09:28
Ali
You know what, I’m going I hear you on that. I agree. I’m not disagreeing. But I think there’s a couple of key components. First, I don’t think people understand the importance of communication.

09:41
Ray
They do, but just they don’t want to do the work well, if you’re.

09:45
Ali
Going to be lazy in a relationship and if you’re going to put up with somebody who’s lazy in their relationship.

09:49
Ray
With you, but that comes with pain. Let’s put things as they are on the table, working on yourself, going to therapy. Healing is a painful and lonely journey. And people, not all of them are I don’t want to say equipped, but not everyone is ready to go on that journey because in their minds, I can go dancing, I could go clubbing, I could go do this and it’s fine, I’ll be fine. No one’s going to die from a heartbreak, whatever it is. If one person in a household decided to break that pattern and do the work, eventually they’re going to have some influence around them. What I’m trying to say is I don’t think it’s laziness. It’s more a fear. Fear of what could go wrong, fear of what they would feel in terms of pain, fear of losing a lot of people in your life.

10:45
Ray
What if I did the work and then I lose the person I love? All of those thoughts that you get. So some people avoid therapy, or some people genuinely think that therapy is a waste of time and money and energy. So I don’t think it’s laziness. I think it’s the narrative around doing the work.

11:04
Ali
So it’s fear.

11:05
Ray
It is fear, but if you think about everything, there’s a fear behind it. Yeah.

11:09
Ali
I hear you. Circling back to communication and relationships. What do you think are the important factors of effective communication?

11:24
Ray
Comprehension.

11:25
Ali
So, understanding and clarity, communicating and comprehension.

11:29
Ray
Timing. Because sometimes you could say the right thing in the wrong time.

11:34
Ali
You’re right. I like that. I think that actually has to do with empathy. Also, if you can understand and feel where the other person is, you will know when the right time is.

11:42
Ray
Emotional intelligence.

11:43
Ali
So emotional intelligence. Active listening. Actually, you know what? Talk to them about active listening. Talk to me about active listening.

11:55
Ray
So active listening is when I’m here with you and I could hear what you’re not saying. One, two, not assuming things, I would ask clarifying questions. Active listening is combining the heart and the mind together. Like, you too have a mission to make sure that this person is feeling heard and supported. And you too see what you’re going to be. A team. The heart and the mind, most importantly is literally I say that a lot, but I genuinely mean it is having a safe space. No judgments, no assumptions, no jumping to conclusions, or no rushing to give any kind of advice. Active listening is you just listening and holding space. Unless, and only unless that person said, what do you think I should do? Or what do you think? Then it would be your turn to talk. You don’t over talk or overstep anyone’s sentence.

13:01
Ray
You don’t say, I’m so happy that you mentioned that, but let me tell you when that happened to me. You don’t go and share your own.

13:08
Ali
These are the people you don’t share with.

13:10
Ray
This goes back to ducking experiences when someone is sharing something.

13:13
Ali
Yeah, I always talk about Brene Brown when it comes to these things. The people you do not share your shame with, I’ll post a link to that video.

13:20
Ray
That’s what active listening is. If someone is sharing something, especially your partner having oh. Active listening is also part of breeding their body language. If I’m having a great day and I could tell that my partner is not, I will not go and share my bad great day with him. I’ll hold the space for him and okay, he had a bad day. That’s active listening or visual listening, whatever you want to call it, just be a good partner.

13:50
Ali
I like that. And I think you’re right on all of those points. I think they’re very important for the people who are struggling. How do you overcome barriers to communication?

14:02
Ray
So struggling with what? There’s a levels of a struggle. Give me an example. Struggling with anxiety, self esteem, depression.

14:10
Ali
Just don’t I’m talking about just not talking to your significant other. Just not struggling with conversation.

14:16
Ray
Communication, yes.

14:18
Ali
Barriers to just communicating better. Okay, let me rephrase it. How do you become an active listener?

14:30
Ray
May know my answer to that. Being an active listener or a good communicator requires you to unlearn a lot of things, stop doing things the way you used to. Because if you’re struggling to convey a message or to feel understood in a relationship, most likely you are not articulating your needs properly and just focusing on the heated stuff like arguing and yelling and breaking and DA. You don’t get me and nothing is solved. So two things. One, work on your level of awareness. What am I doing wrong? And it’s okay to do things wrong. At the end of the day, we are all work in progress. I don’t care if you’ve done therapy or not. We are all work in progress because you can never tell where a trigger is coming from.

15:27
Ali
Agreed.

15:28
Ray
So that would be one always just leave space to work on yourselves. The second one is what did I want to say? Work on yourselves. The struggling part. There was a very important thing I wanted to say. See dory mamiti. I’ll get to it. But what was it?

15:55
Ali
So we’re talking about how to become more Active Listener.

15:59
Ray
Active Listener. I’ll get to it. I forgot. But that goes back to the point I made in the beginning. Make sure you are with someone who knows to communicate. You can read if a person is a good communicator or not by watching and observing that person with someone who provides services, someone who is I don’t know, on his bad day, how does he communicate? He or she? Because I’m a woman, I always refer to a he. How does he come to me with bad news?

16:36
Ali
Or do they just shut down and isolate?

16:39
Ray
Absolutely. So you can tell if someone is a good communicator. How does he share news or update? Or how does he talk about his family and wins and failures? I saw something the other day and it was so impressive. A guy told his fiance, who do you think I am? Am I your LinkedIn? So you just come to me with your wins and achievements and leave your struggles behind. And I just laughed. So you can tell someone is a good communicator.

17:08
Ali
In some relationships it’s the other way. You only get dumped with the problems.

17:13
Ray
But that’s not just the communicator’s fault. That’s the other person. Where are your boundaries?

17:19
Ali
Yes.

17:23
Ray
Big topic. Like I could talk about this for so I really want to remember what I wanted to say. I’ll do.

17:29
Ali
That one of the things while you’re remembering, one of the things that I always talk about. And interestingly enough, this model comes out of data communication. And to simplify it, there’s four components for effective data communication. There’s a sender, a receiver. You got to have a sender. You got to have a receiver. And then there’s two things in the middle outcome. No, you have to have a channel. You have to have a channel of communication. For example, I can be a sender. You’re a receiver. So that’s two covered the channel could be I’m sending a text, I’m sending a voice note. I’m talking to you in person with audio or sign language. So there’s a channel. And the third thing is language. We have to have a common language. So if I’m going to speak in a language that you don’t understand, I’ve got the sender, the receiver, the channel.

18:11
Ali
If the language doesn’t match, communication doesn’t work. So all of these four have to be in alignment for it to effectively work. And as simple as that sounds, as soon as I look at this with people, it’s the same. You have a person talking, but you don’t have a person listening, so you don’t have a receiver. You have a person talking in a medium that the other person does not understand how to use. You have a person talking and talking in a language. And I’m not talking about like English arbitrary, I’m talking about talking, trying to communicate what is going on or how they’re feeling in a way that the other person is not understanding. And then there’s frustration like, okay, well, I didn’t want to try communicating in the first place and now that I tried, it’s not effective. So it’s not just a matter of communicating, but it’s a matter of effective communicating.

18:59
Ali
So the active listener and having all.

19:00
Ray
The factors in place.

19:01
Ali
Exactly. So the active listener is definitely one part of it. But from the sender’s perspective, I think vulnerability is very important. You need to be ready to be vulnerable, to share things and trust in the other person to receive those things and not mock you or not laugh at you or one up you with, oh, I have a worse story than that type of situation. And I think what you said earlier is very true. People show you who they are, just look, you can see how they interact with other people and you can extrapolate what sort of communicator this person is sender and receiver with how they are in their other relationships and other people that are in and around their lives. But again, going back to our previous podcast, if you already recognize things that are red flags and bad communication, don’t magically assume you’re going to fix it.

19:53
Ali
And I hate to say this, I think an early exit strategy in some cases is smart, not too early.

19:59
Ray
Why do you hate to say this?

20:00
Ali
No, I hate to say this because people think, oh, you didn’t give it a chance. I’m like, no, I’m talking about giving it a chance, but I’m not talking about spending a year in a relationship that’s not giving a chance.

20:09
Ray
Period speaks. And if you’re not going to trust your intuition based on an experience that you had the other day, I saw something that I don’t have trust issues. I can recognize patterns. Yes, there’s a huge difference. So in that case, if you are in a place or a level that you can recognize patterns and you can recognize, what do you not want? I might be okay with not knowing what I want in a relationship, but I know for a fact what I do not want. If I smell it or see it’s gone, it’s gone. You know what I mean? But speaking of a channel of communication, there’s one thing I would really want us to talk about big topics on WhatsApp?

20:55
Ali
I think it’s interesting. I think it’s very interesting that WhatsApp or the texting, I’m against the communication medium that it has provided. I’ve seen it work both ways, right? And I’ll talk about both. The first way I’ve seen it not work most of the time I don’t see it work effectively is because there is so much in body language, in tone, interaction. You can see the other person just by looking at their face and looking at their eyes. That how deeply they are concerned about an issue. These things do not reflect in a.

21:26
Ray
Text and it’s a two way thing when you are like this.

21:29
Ali
Very much so.

21:29
Ray
And most importantly, no one is in control of anyone. Yes, when I’m having a big topic or a big discussion on a big topic through WhatsApp either of us could block, stop, replying or ghost or say fuck this shit, excuse my French or whatever, someone is always in control. But when we’re having that it’s much better and you have a better opportunity or chance to calm things down because I don’t want to be having a big topic on WhatsApp with someone cap slocking me. I’ll cat slock you. You know what I mean?

22:03
Ali
I think for most there’s no human touch for most significant conversations WhatsApp? And texting is the wrong channel in a very few and I’m going to mention this because I know the person who’s listening in a very few small handful situations. I know people who have anxiety and they struggle with having serious discussions in persons because they’re very fearful of the confrontational nature of the conversation that might occur. And they find that little bit of safety in opening that conversation in WhatsApp and I’ve seen it had I not seen it with some very close friends, I would have hardcore stuck with no serious conversations on WhatsApp it should be a rule and none of this fighting and argumentative. You don’t understand what’s going on. A small situation gets very quickly blown out of proportion. So overall I agree with you. I think WhatsApp is not the place for these type of conversations and quite frankly, if you can’t sit in the same room face to face with a person, have these difficult conversations, you shouldn’t be in a relationship.

23:05
Ray
Well, because people when I say people in relationships the thing that most of them are stuck with, which I used to fall guilty is me and you versus each other instead of me and you versus the problem or what we.

23:22
Ali
Are talking about 100%.

23:24
Ray
So it becomes like a war and then people would just go and three years back you said this and you said that I compromised this for you, I lost that for you. And then what happens is that the conversation goes from one place to another and then a bigger problem gets created and boom.

23:40
Ali
Then it’s not a conversation anymore. You’ve been collecting ammunition over the years most of the you’ve been collecting ammunition to have a fight. That’s it. I mean I have friends, very close friends and sometimes I’m talking and we get into a heated discussion and then I pause, and then I smile. They’re like, Why are you smiling? I’m like, you realize we’re not on the opposite sides of this discussion. We’re on the same sides. Just because we’re sitting on the opposite sides of the table doesn’t mean it so let me help you. I’m on your side. Would you like to come back to your side? Because I’m on your side, and the only reason we’re having this is to improve whatever that situation is that you’re going through. I’m not against you on it. Why do you, by default, put me on the other side of the table?

24:20
Ali
But that’s kind of like our knee jerk reaction. We’ve been brought up in a world where you have to be defensive. You have to hold your ground with whatever is going on around you.

24:29
Ray
I am very known to be defensive when I speak about things. I’ve worked a lot about toning down when I’m talking or discussing or whatever, but I’ve also realized that sometimes it’s coming from a place of passion or a place of what is the right word for it? Like, I don’t get defensive just for the sake of defensiveness. It’s because of passion. So I got that. Yes, I do get defensive. But that defensive part is when you’re trying to communicate something with someone, and they get defensive as resistance.

25:08
Ali
Yes.

25:10
Ray
They lock it. They block it. So there’s a line between this and that, and I’m really tired of telling people to go to therapy. So how about we try to give them some tips on you’ve mentioned something very important, which is the fear of confrontation.

25:27
Ali
Yes.

25:28
Ray
So you’re very good in this. What would you advise someone who is afraid to confront? Leave anxiety on the side? They’re not people with anxiety. They’re just people who brought up as who. I’m talking about tips.

25:41
Ali
I think the first thing that you need to do is establish ground rules. You sit for a conversation and you say, listen, we need to have a conversation. There’s been something on my mind that has something’s been rubbing me the wrong way. But before we get in there, I want you and me to agree that this is a safe space. We will not raise our voices to each other. We will not get defensive of just trying to prove that I am right or you are wrong or whatever it is, and you will give me the opportunity to honestly hear me out.

26:14
Ray
That’s the person who is afraid of confronting yes.

26:18
Ali
This person is the person who needs to make a move. Have this pre conversation before the actual conversation, because this lets the other person know that, oh, wait a second. This is a serious talk. This is not just something I’m supposed to jump and fight. Oh, okay. I didn’t realize how important this was to you. This is what the guys this is the other person is going to think I didn’t realize how important it’s in their head how important this was for you. I didn’t realize that you get worried about having a conversation. These are all realizations that the receiver didn’t have. So if you set it up and say that, look, this is how it’s going to work, and you say that, look, if at any point in this conversation, if I feel that voices are getting raised with no disrespect, I will step back because I don’t want to engage in a conversation like that with you.

27:06
Ali
And all of this is coming from a place of care and love. And I’ve had some very difficult conversations with my very close friends about stuff that was doing. The stuff that they were doing was stupid, wrong level type of stuff. There is no discussion. There is no debate about the wrong that they were doing. There’s no debate. But in their mind, it was right. And I’ve approached almost the same way and I said, look, this is coming. If I didn’t care about you as a friend, I wouldn’t have this conversation. I will let you do stupid shit. Your life not my problem. But because I’m coming from somebody who cares about you, I think this is an important conversation to have. This is a safe space. The conversation does not leave this room. I will not take it outside. There is no judgment. But I need you to hear me out on my perspective, on what’s going on that I’m observing.

27:57
Ali
And after this, you feel like doing whatever, continue.

28:00
Ray
But that’s because you’re a very good communicator. Now you’re saying that. And in my head, I would be someone who is not comfortable to confront. He wouldn’t say that. No, he will keep avoiding and ignoring and avoiding.

28:18
Ali
Look, you got to step up, because if you ignore and avoid, it builds up. I know a lot of people who have left relationships because they’re too afraid to have conversations. They’ve literally found it easier to leave relationships just, you know what? I’ll just break up.

28:31
Ray
The pressure would be too high. Yeah.

28:33
Ali
And I’ve talked to a friend, I’m like, you broke up. Why did you break up? I’m like, that’s just a conversation. And that’s not even a thing. The issue is not even an issue. But you made it an issue because you weren’t ready to communicate about it. So I think the fundamental thing is to have a pre conversation to lay out how the conversation is going to go, what the expectations are. So both parties are now on the same table, on the same side, and there’s an expectation of, hey, you need to listen. I’m not just telling you I had a bad day. This is leveled up. We need to have different conversations. And these could be conversations about anything. This could be a couple wanting to discuss financial things, which is one of the very tough things to discuss. This. Could be couples wanting to discuss intimacy.

29:23
Ali
Intimacy things. Again, very tough thing to discuss. Or even if they want to, for example, want to have children, or when they want to have children, or how many children. These are things I’ve seen.

29:32
Ray
Both sides should have been discussed from the beginning.

29:35
Ali
I agree with you, but we know human nature to some extent is avoidance based, right? So if we’re coming from a place of avoidance, at some point conversations need to be had and if they’re not, it gets you in trouble.

29:50
Ray
Tell me if you agree or not. There’s a quote that people keep on sharing. I have mixed feelings about it. They say that every overthinker needs to date a good communicator. Do you agree or not?

30:08
Ali
I don’t think there’s necessary structured pairs that exist like this. I think certain types of people work great with other types of people. I’ve seen highly introverted people coupled up.

30:21
Ray
With highly extroverted people who overthink.

30:24
Ali
But even when it comes to, for example, overthinkers or people who overstructure, whatever, I have seen all combinations work and I have seen all combinations not work. So why and communication? The ones who communicate work. The ones who don’t communicate don’t work. In business, we have all sorts of every few years, new research and new analysis pops up and they say that, oh, ADHD. People who have ADHD do this and this particularly well. They pair up really well as a startup founder in a company with people who can help with structure and organization and larger things. And this is a great team. Okay, could be, but not necessarily and not always. But I have always, almost always found the underlining problem of when there genuinely isn’t a problem but has become one is there wasn’t any communication involved. Right? So if you talk about this type and this type, it’s a matter of communicating so many couples.

31:29
Ali
Oh my goodness, this is one of my favorite examples. We do this also. Let’s go eat.

31:36
Ray
No, don’t ask me. But here’s the thing. I already gave you a heads up from the beginning of our friendship, which is don’t make me choose.

31:45
Ali
Which is fine. So I communicated, which is fine, but.

31:48
Ray
I want to share another.

31:49
Ali
But I will always still ask out of courtesy. And if you still come back to me and say you pick, okay, no problem, I’ll pick. But I will never come from a place where I say, hey, we’re going here. Yeah. I wouldn’t go and say, oh, we’re going here to eat, even though I know that you have told me.

32:03
Ray
But I want to share a story that could have went really to a bad place, but because we communicated or I initiated a communication. You’re smiling. I think you know where I’m going with this. So there was a time, I don’t know when was that a few months back. I was going through a very not very that would be exaggerating. But I was going through a bad time and were supposed to meet and I send you a message, hey, I don’t want to cancel last minute, but here’s what’s going on with me. We could either reschedule or we could still meet and your reaction to that message and I send it to you. And I was like, oh my God, oh my God. But I don’t want to lie, I don’t want to make excuses because I know that at some point with my dory memory there will be a day when I’ll be caught up with that lie.

32:52
Ray
Oh my God. And your reaction was like, thank you for letting me know. I got you. Let’s still meet. And I was like, if everyone did this, like if everyone did this, it’s going to feel uncomfortable at the beginning, but then it’s going to make things easier. It will strengthen the connection and the bond and from that moment forward, I don’t think there has been a situation or a moment with assumptions or misunderstanding, disagreements.

33:28
Ali
Yes, of course to me, disagreements to me are healthy because it tells me that you are comfortable bringing a difference of opinion to the discussion.

33:39
Ray
Oh yeah.

33:39
Ali
Because if you’re not comfortable doing that means this is not a safe space.

33:43
Ray
Or I could be a people pleaser.

33:45
Ali
In which case both don’t work. Yeah, but the example, that particular example that you mentioned and 100% you’re right had you not communicated, you never would have gotten the response or maybe it.

33:57
Ray
Would have affected our friendship.

33:59
Ali
Oh, it would have because if you had not communicated that particular situation and you would have gone with one of your tangents. Now we would be working off the tangents. So the fact that you communicated it and I gave you a straight up honest response, that no problem. This we’re good to go. We’re good to go. And what that does is that establishes a build up on the trust, a build up on mutual respect. And now going forward, anytime this sort of situation or anything close to it, your brain won’t even we both are good communicators.

34:27
Ray
Well, yes, I’d like to believe that I am one.

34:30
Ali
No, you are. So this is why I’m saying imagine.

34:32
Ray
This scenario with someone who doesn’t communicate.

34:34
Ali
See, this gets tough. So if this was a scenario that you had to talk to someone who doesn’t communicate well, let’s swap places. If I had to have this conversation with somebody, given the situation that I know that this other person is not maybe perhaps a good listener and may not understand, it would be a big decision for me to most probably not have that conversation.

34:54
Ray
Yeah, same.

34:55
Ali
I would have just avoided the situation through an excuse and exit.

34:59
Ray
Is it worth my energy?

35:01
Ali
Because in my head and it’s really funny, the questions I ask myself sometimes in my head. The conversations, if you could see the conversations in my head so funny.

35:09
Ray
We should have an episode on that.

35:11
Ali
Combine both voices, podcast might get shut down. So literally my conversation in my head would be, is it worth the effort for me to try to explain to this person? Is this person even going to understand where I’m coming from?

35:27
Ray
That goes to the language.

35:28
Ali
Exactly. And as soon as I go to no finish, yeah, absolutely. It’s like, have a nice day, bro.

35:33
Ray
Same.

35:33
Ali
Bye bye. But there’s times where like, no, you know what? Not a problem. I’ve got friends. If I’m having a tough day, it’s been a busy day. I was supposed to reach out for something. I didn’t they don’t jump on me, say, hey man, you were supposed to message. What happened? End of day, bro, you were supposed to reach out all okay. That’s the sort of message I get. And I reply, I’m sorry, it just was a very long day. And you want to talk about it? No, I’m the one okay, no problem. You want to meet up tomorrow, day after?

36:01
Ray
Yeah, but that has happened with us, like, a lot of times when this is planned to meet.

36:06
Ali
But this is good communication, right?

36:08
Ray
Yeah.

36:08
Ali
Outside of good communication, we’ll be like, look at this guy. Not even bother text me. What does he think he is? And you trying to ghost me, whatever. But because we’ve built that foundation of trust and respect and then all the other layers are on top of it, there’s not even a thought that this person is trying to be I don’t want to use the word devious, manipulative or devious or lying or whatever. That doesn’t occur, but this is because it’s good communication. So I think circling back to what you can do to establish good communication is you need to take the initiative.

36:42
Ray
Before you take the initiative, learn how.

36:45
Ali
Exactly. You also need to learn how to communicate.

36:48
Ray
I mean, take advanced communication courses, work with a coach. I need you to have someone not you, but the person who is listening. I need you to have someone to call out your bullshit.

37:00
Ali
Oh, yes, very true. And that person needs to be somebody biased. And I keep telling everybody, I’m like, you need to stop listening to the wrong people.

37:12
Ray
Yeah, of course.

37:12
Ali
In life, you need to listen to only and my friends will be like, oh my God, he’s saying it again. You only need to listen to two types of people, just two. Content matter expert. If I want to build a rocket, I want to talk to a guy who knows how to build rockets, and I want to know from the expert. So content matter expert.

37:30
Ray
Can I just add one word before the content matter expert? Credible.

37:34
Ali
Well, yes, of course.

37:36
Ray
We’ve just had a conversation about someone sharing content who’s not credible to me.

37:41
Ali
That’s implied. But yes, to carry on the conversation we had offline. So not only just a content matter expert, but a credible one. Like a legit.

37:51
Ray
I can’t believe we have to say that now.

37:53
Ali
Well, there’s a lot of bullshitters. So a credible content matter expert, that’s one. And the other one is someone you have implicit trust. Someone you have and the measure of that trust is I’ll tell you the simple measure. Can you tell this person good news and this person will genuinely be happy for you and not jealous? Can you tell this person bad news and they will genuinely just be there in support of you and not try to fix it or one up it or any of that stuff?

38:23
Ray
Just now, three people popped up.

38:24
Ali
Thank you. These two things are absolutely critical. And the third is, can you discuss with this person what you’re thinking about, how you feel, your life and growth and things to be? And this person will give you true to heart, genuine advice that’s good for you, independent of any other selfish.

38:46
Ray
I would subtract that from the equation for one reason. Reason. Not everyone is able to give that kind of advice.

38:57
Ali
That’s fine.

38:57
Ray
Based on their maybe the where they are.

39:02
Ali
That’s what the first person’s for, right? The content matter expert. And this because I have friends who come to me, very close friends, like Ali. This I’m like, bro, I don’t know, I can’t answer, can’t. So I have more often than not, and I’m very comfortable admitting when I don’t know something. And when I do know something, I say, look, in my humble opinion and.

39:24
Ray
My research ABC, in my humble opinion, it’s not very humble.

39:34
Ali
What can I tell you?

39:35
Ray
Thumbs up if you agree.

39:36
Ali
What can I tell you now that we’re dropping pearls of wisdom.

39:41
Ray
There you go.

39:42
Ali
Audience, listen up. There’s the right way and then there’s Ali’s way. And then what was the other thing? This other thing I really liked, I don’t use it that often. The best way to learn is from somebody else’s mistakes. So you don’t make those mistakes. The second best way to learn is from your own mistakes. And the best way, like Ali, don’t make the mistakes too much. Too much too soon. No, but going back to what you said, circling the important factors of communication, you need to build that skill set. You need to be able to create that space. I’ve got a very close friend of mine I was talking to, just an interesting discussion. And I’ve known this friend for maybe six ish plus years. And I was telling this friend, I’m like, I got a question for you. Like what? And I’m like, in all the years we’ve known each other, we never had a fight.

40:40
Ray
Yeah, I know who you’re talking about.

40:42
Ali
Yeah, we never had a fight. But you’ve had a fight with everybody that you know in six years. Yeah. And you never wonder why we never had a fight? Now that I think of it, I don’t know. Why have we never had a fight? I’m like, because we communicate. It’s a discussion. It’s a difference of opinion. And even when it’s a hard difference of opinion, where I’d be like, Are you stupid?

41:08
Ray
Yeah.

41:09
Ali
It’s not taken to heart that Ali called me stupid. It’s taken to heart that shit. I did something dumb. And now Ali’s going to say, hey, look at it from this perspective. Did you think about this or did you think about this? Because at the end of the day, if I care for you, why would I want you to go through a bad situation? Why would I want you to go through a terrible experience? To learn if I can save you.

41:30
Ray
When you say it like that, when.

41:32
Ali
I can save you from that terrible experience? Because I had learned it from the.

41:35
Ray
Hard some people don’t have that narrative in their minds. The other day, a friend of mine came to me and said that she just blew over her boyfriend. Like, screaming, yelling. She was like, I don’t care. I went toxic. But the backstory of that is that she was trying to communicate frustrations, things she wanted to improve or to work on or for him to actually listen to. And he would take it sarcastically or try to make jokes until she just blew up. In his defense, when he was like, oh, shit. You’re serious? He thought he’s trying to make her feel better, to improve the mood in her narrative. That. No, I’m done.

42:22
Ali
Yeah, she felt disrespected big time. Again, this is the active listening part, right?

42:31
Ray
Yeah.

42:31
Ali
I mean, I have friends tell me stuff, and so many times, I’ll literally message, am I listening or am I giving feedback? And I’ll get the you’re listening. Thumbs up. Tell me more. Right? And sometimes at the end of all of that, is there’s silence? And then I’ll ask again, are we done? And am I still listening, or would you like feedback? Feedback. And then I give my warning, and I know my friends know it, and they’re like, Why do you keep saying it? I’m like, Because it needs to be fresh in your head. Are you sure? Because I will tell you the truth. Whether I’m not going to tell you something you want to hear to make you feel better, I will tell you the truth. So don’t ask me if you don’t want the truth. And by the way, this applies to everything.

43:20
Ali
When people are cooking or like one of my good friends, she’s a fantastic cook. She would cook something, and we’d be over at her house. We’d be eating. Or when my son Abdullah cooked something, he knows this. He’s grown up with me, right? So he knows this. And what do you think? I’m like, give me a second. I’ll take a couple of bites and I’ll be know for next time. Adjust this, adjust this, tweak this, cook this way, cook that way, do this, do this. And they’re like, oh, thanks, bro. Everyone else around the table is like, oh, it’s good, it’s so good. And they’re like, Ali, why can’t you just say it’s so good? I’m like, because the person didn’t ask me just to get the compliment. They asked me for feedback, and I asked them, like, do you want feedback.

43:59
Ray
Or do you what?

44:00
Ali
I was just about you met again. We were at his house last year. His mom. Oh, my God, MashaAllah. She is bless her. She’s such a good cook. I ate so much. I had trouble breathing. I couldn’t walk. It was so much food. I ate, of course, and then he had dessert after. Of course I did. And she had cooked something, and then she asked me how it was, and Agid was translating for us, and I told him, can you tell your mom if she’s asking me a question, she wants the answer, or she just wants me to say it’s nice, because I already told you this is the bomb. I love it’s. So nice. And he told her, and she’s, no, I want to know because I heard Ali cooks, I want to know. And I said, look, this is perfect, this is perfect.

44:43
Ali
In this next time, try making this adjustment, because I think if you make this adjustment, the meat will be a little bit more tender or whatever. I don’t even remember what I said. Oh, you could see her face lit up. It’s like, oh, wow. Quality advice.

44:57
Ray
But that takes us to what you said in the beginning. Sender, receiver, channel.

45:03
Ali
Yes.

45:04
Ray
You can’t do any kind of conversations without those three. You need a receiver sender and a channel.

45:11
Ali
So, I mean, just to kind of bring things full circle. I think we’ve well established. Communication is critical for a healthy relationship, and I think the takeaways are that everybody big topics in the beginning yes. In the early stages of relationships, put down the big topics, because if there are certain things that are deal breakers, better to walk away now, right? And then everybody needs to work on being an active listener. Everybody needs to work on being a better communicator. And for that, there’s tons of coaches, there’s tons of people who specialize in it. There’s courses. Rahab herself does a lot of this, too. These things are very important.

45:50
Ray
And being a good communicator, just if we want to wrap this, I would wrap it with that is being a good communicator doesn’t mean you’re not going to be scared, doesn’t mean you’re not going to feel nervous, and doesn’t mean that you’re going to be doing it, like, smoothly. No, you’re going to feel the heat. Feel the heat in your cheeks. Yes, you’re going to feel like you’re dizzy. Things are shaking around you, but you’re going to still say the things you want to say, because at the end of the day, this is what’s going to either get you out of a problem or help you avoid one.

46:25
Ali
Yes, 100%. Agreed. On that note, thank you very much, Raha, for being here. Again, a wonderful podcast, wonderful conversations, and for the very few of you out there who know what I’m about to say, next minutes well spent. Thank you much. Thank.